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Shuttle Doomed at Takeoff - Telltale Heat Spike Was Recorded After Debris Strike
ABC News ^ | April 18, 2003 | Lisa Stark and Gina Treadgold

Posted on 04/19/2003 5:02:48 AM PDT by jpthomas

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To: 300winmag; friendly
Also, I remember one report from the Challenger disaster that said the O-ring burn-through started to appear after the EPA made NASA discontinue using an insulating putty that contained asbestos.

So that EPA tragedy occurred on Reagan's watch. The likely EPA tank foam tragedy occurred on Clinton's watch. The problem is the EPA monster was created by the Republican Nixon administration.

Take note, because we have another Republican administration that believes government is the solution.

21 posted on 04/20/2003 3:57:24 AM PDT by Moonman62
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To: Tom D.
It is clear that environmentalists have killed many more Americans that all of the nuclear power plants and all of the DDT in the country combined.

That's because the number of Americans killed by nuclear power and DDT combined is zero.

22 posted on 04/20/2003 4:02:26 AM PDT by jalisco555
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To: jpthomas
Not necessarily a smoking gun. Twenty seconds before the debris strike, Columbia encountered a severe wind shear which may have broken the leading edge by itself, or weakened it so much that the foam broke it.
A few pieces of insulating foam or other debris broke off the external fuel tank 81 seconds after liftoff and slammed into the leading edge of Columbia's left wing.

But the board also indicated the wing may have been made more vulnerable to debris damage because it was buffeted by unusual wind shear about 20 seconds earlier in the liftoff.

The wind shear was within NASA's safety limits, but it was the strongest gust ever seen so close to the point where the shuttle is exposed to the maximum aerodynamic stress of liftoff, the board said. That point occurs around 80 seconds into a launch.

Not only that, but just before the previous Columbia flight (STS-109), some kind of modification was done to the leading edge of columbia. All the RCC was removed, some mod was performed, and all the RCC and surrounding tile was replaced. We still don't have any answers about that.

23 posted on 04/20/2003 4:16:48 AM PDT by snopercod
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To: 300winmag; bonesmccoy; XBob; brityank
Thanks for bringing up the asbestos putty. I found an article on it (posted below). I knew about the blowby they were having in the mid-90's due to the J-flap solvent and adhesive changes, but wasn't aware of the previous problem with the zinc-chromate putty.

Did risk reduction backfire in space?

By Malcolm Ross
Washington Times January 28, 1996

"Do I dare to eat a peach?" wrote T. S. Eliot in "The Love-Song of J. Alfred Prufrock." The corridors of government are crowded with Prufrocks, imagining dangers on all sides, cautioning against all action. The inability to dare anything is particularly pronounced in the hazy areas connecting science and public policy. Suggestions of risk are easily found in the complex technologies underlying contemporary life. What is not so easy is to make impromptu technological changes on the basis of fleeting fears.

The explosion of the space shuttle Challenger, which stunned the nation in 1986, and left long tendrils of speculation and second-guessing in its wake, is a particularly twisted tale of the calculation of risk. Most analysis of the event has focused on decisions made the day of the launch: should it have been called off because of cold weather? Who was aware of the risk involved? What information was known and what was suppressed? A new book by the sociologist Diane Vaughan (The Challenger Launch Decision, U. Chicago Press) analyzes the "culture of NASA," attempting to show that the explosion was not a technological problem but a symptom of NASA's style of decision-making.

Like many studies of scientific subjects undertaken by non-scientists, this book overlooks some very important facts. The shuttle is a machine, not a social organism, and the technical causes of its failure are readily grasped. The deeper flaws in the shuttle's system of protecting the booster rocket's exterior casing--the O-rings seals and the putty-filled joints which contained the ferociously hot gases produced by combustion of the rocket fuel--are clearly laid out in NASA engineering reports, news reports, and the Report of the Presidential Commission of June 6, 1986. They lead back to a curious point of origin: the 1977 Consumer Products Safety Commission ban on retail asbestos products and the impending ban on all asbestos use by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Simply put, the Challenger exploded because the putty failed to prevent hot gases from passing through the booster joint and burning the O-rings. This failure was a direct result of a change in the kind of putty used for sealing the joints. For the first nine successful shuttle missions, NASA employed a special asbestos-bearing putty manufactured by the Fuller O'Brien Company of San Francisco. But in the wake of the developing notoriety of asbestos-bearing products and the fear of lawsuits, Fuller-O'Brien stopped manufacturing the putty that had served the shuttle so well.

Early in 1984, having run through their stock of Fuller-O'Brien putty, NASA engineers turned to another type of asbestos-bearing putty manufactured by Randolph Products of Carlstadt, NJ. The Fuller-O'Brien putty was also used in the Titan 34-D booster rocket joint seals, similar in design to those of the Challenger. However, by 1985 it too had been replaced by a substitute putty. The result of this substitution, following a string of 50 successful Titan launches, was a devastating explosion of the next two Titan rockets, one launched in August of 1985 and the other in April of 1986.

The shuttle engineers became increasingly alarmed about "blowholes" in the Randolph putty and burned O-rings--defects appearing in the boosters used on the 15 space shuttles launched during 1984 and 1985. Gases as hot as 6000 degrees Fahrenheit flowed through the blowholes and wrought havoc on the O-rings, whose debilitated state showed clearly when the discarded rocket boosters were recovered from the ocean. To quote from an engineering memo of February 28, 1984: "ZCP (type II Randolph zinc chromate putty) failure to provide a thermal barrier can lead to burning both O-rings and subsequent catastrophic failure." The purpose of the putty was clearly explained in NASA review documents. The putty must prevent the hot gases from impinging on the delicate O-rings and also must act as a medium to transmit pressure to the O-rings thus enabling them to seal properly.

In my reexamination of the Fuller-O'Brien and Randolph putties in 1994 it became clear why one failed and the other did not. The Fuller-O'Brien product is very sticky, even at temperatures held for 24 hours at 10 degrees Fahrenheit. It clings tenaciously to the surrounding material: it has something of the same effect as the ooze in the La Brea tar pits, which does not easily let go if you stick your foot onto its surface. The Randolph putty, by contrast, is stiff to the touch. At 10 degrees, it is almost hard: it does not cling. At the near-freezing launch temperature it is not surprising that the Randolph putty failed.

The Challenger disaster tells us something more: that measures aimed at lessening risk can actually increase risk, even create risk. The removal of the Fuller-O'Brien product and the hasty substitution of the Randolph putty (which, ironically, also used asbestos) are the single and obvious origin of the tragedy of January 28, 1986.

Diane Vaughan suggests that there existed a "culture" in the space-shuttle program that led to the Challenger disaster. If indeed there existed a culture of failure, then it was part of a larger culture, the regulatory culture devoted to banning products that are perceived to be associated with even small environmental or health risks.

The removal of the Fuller-O'Brien putty threw a monkey wrench into the space shuttle program. How many more monkey wrenches are we to throw into our society through faulty risk assessments?
__________________

Malcolm Ross is associated with the Science and Environmental Policy Project. He has 41 years experience as a research scientist with the U.S. Geological Survey.

24 posted on 04/21/2003 7:47:32 AM PDT by snopercod
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To: snopercod; XBob; John Jamieson; bonesmccoy; Thud; Budge; wirestripper; Lawdoc; manna; ...
The Challenger disaster tells us something more: that measures aimed at lessening risk can actually increase risk, even create risk. The removal of the Fuller-O'Brien product and the hasty substitution of the Randolph putty (which, ironically, also used asbestos) are the single and obvious origin of the tragedy of January 28, 1986.

So this confirms that Columbia is the second shuttle that the EPA has killed. I was not aware of the asbestos component problem in the blowby; IIRC, there was much discussion about some 'razor-slice' cuts in the O-rings that the extreme cold opened slightly and let the exhaust gases blow by. As noted, many other boosters had evidenced blow-by; fortunately none of them impinged the hydrogen tank as did Challengers.

Someone else remarked that the EPA has killed more people than Atomic Power or DDT; I now know that the EPA has killed more astronauts than NASA.

25 posted on 04/21/2003 2:34:46 PM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional.)
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To: brityank
FYI, saw a crawl on FOX a little while ago that Ron Dittemore is leaving NASA.
26 posted on 04/21/2003 2:35:50 PM PDT by mewzilla
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To: brityank
I have the dubious distinction of being an eyewitness to both Titan failures, as well as the Challenger, which I helped to launch.

I was developing a solipsism complex for a while there...

27 posted on 04/21/2003 2:56:50 PM PDT by snopercod
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To: leadpenny
Who knows??
28 posted on 04/21/2003 3:22:32 PM PDT by Springman
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To: friendly
I love all the so-called NASA experts originally saying the insulation was absolutely NOT the cause.

I love all the FReepers saying that the NASA experts actually said that.

29 posted on 04/21/2003 3:23:56 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: snopercod
sol·ip·sism [ sóllp sìzzm, sáwl sìzzm ] noun belief in self as only reality: the belief that the only thing somebody can be sure of is that he or she exists, and that true knowledge of anything else is impossible [Late 19th century. Formed from Latin solus alone + ipse self.] sol·ip·sist noun sol·ip·sis·tic [ sòllp sístik, slp sístik ] adjective sol·ip·sis·ti·cal·ly [ sòllp sístiklee, slp sístiklee ] adverb

Sorry, I had to look that one up! LOL!

30 posted on 04/21/2003 8:51:32 PM PDT by Cold Heat (Negotiate!! .............(((Blam!.)))........... "Now who else wants to negotiate?")
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To: brityank
So this confirms that Columbia is the second shuttle that the EPA has killed

Some of the better minds that I have heard in Congress have admitted that regulation often has many unintended consequences and sometimes these can be deadly.

There have been many such instances of this and it is worthy of a thread dedicated to it.

Perhaps someone could use this as an idea for a thesis.

31 posted on 04/21/2003 8:56:51 PM PDT by Cold Heat (Negotiate!! .............(((Blam!.)))........... "Now who else wants to negotiate?")
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To: wirestripper
Heinlein wrote an entire science fiction book based upon "multiple-ego solipsism". When the crew of this ship collectively forgot about some place, the place actually disappeared. Sounds stupid, but it was a good tale.

I think it was Friday, but maybe it was The man who loved Cat dancing.

32 posted on 04/22/2003 5:17:40 AM PDT by snopercod
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To: friendly
Freon (CFC R-11 and R-12) were actually phased out, and ultimately banned for use under the "Montreal Protocol" that was drafed and signed by the US in 1985. If the adhesion of the foam to the substrate (fuel tanks) was not tested EXTENSIVELY by NASA when the blowing agent was changed from freon then they should be held accountable. When this type of insulation was changed from a CFC blowing agent to the "next generation" blowing agent (actually HCFCs-halogenated cholorflurocarbon) the performance products of the products actually improved.
33 posted on 04/22/2003 5:26:25 AM PDT by mrmargaritaville
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To: mrmargaritaville
bttt
34 posted on 04/22/2003 5:27:33 AM PDT by friendly
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To: The Duke
"Who would have guessed that the last seven Clinton murders would have been so spectacular?"

You must have meant to write the latest Clinton murders. I am afraid they are not done yet....


35 posted on 04/22/2003 5:37:46 AM PDT by AdSimp
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To: Administrative Simplification
"Who would have guessed that the last seven Clinton murders would have been so spectacular?"

I am also waiting for the next sexual harassment or rape charges against Clinton. You know it is coming.

36 posted on 04/22/2003 5:45:36 AM PDT by friendly
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To: snopercod; brityank
24 - WRONG !!! - "The Challenger disaster tells us something more: that measures aimed at lessening risk can actually increase risk, even create risk. The removal of the Fuller-O'Brien product and the hasty substitution of the Randolph putty (which, ironically, also used asbestos) are the single and obvious origin of the tragedy of January 28, 1986. "

RIGHT !!! - "Diane Vaughan suggests that there existed a "culture" in the space-shuttle program that led to the Challenger disaster. If indeed there existed a culture of failure, then it was part of a larger culture, the regulatory culture devoted to banning products that are perceived to be associated with even small environmental or health risks. "

---

There were problems with the O-rings before that, however, not nearly as serious. However, they were serious enough that a new joint design to correct the problem was completed 17 months prior to the Challenger explosion. However, NASA was too 'busy', making their schedule, to fix the problem. That modified design, from 1984, is what is flying now.

In addition, the only man fired in the whole Challenger fiasco, was the one engineer from Morton-Thaikol (manufacturer of the Solid Rocket Boosters) who said 'DON'T FLY !!!! It's toooo cold. !!!", that day. (Once again, NASA had another 'Dittimore' in charge, who over-rode more knowlegable people for 'political' reasons.
37 posted on 04/23/2003 1:57:14 AM PDT by XBob
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To: mrmargaritaville; friendly; snopercod; wirestripper
33 - "Freon (CFC R-11 and R-12) were actually phased out, and ultimately banned for use under the "Montreal Protocol" that was drafed and signed by the US in 1985. If the adhesion of the foam to the substrate (fuel tanks) was not tested EXTENSIVELY by NASA when the blowing agent was changed from freon then they should be held accountable. When this type of insulation was changed from a CFC blowing agent to the "next generation" blowing agent (actually HCFCs-halogenated cholorflurocarbon) the performance products of the products actually improved."

===

I was on the Freon Replacement team at KSC in 1990-91. We did extensive testing on cleaning rebuild parts (many are rebuilt after each use) with freon replacements (rather than pure freon - which was used exclusively), and nothing worked as well. However, since it was 'required', the best we could come up with was deionized water. It took 16 times as long to get them equally clean. Implementation of the Montreal Protocol was scheduled for 1995. I understand NASA also got a waiver on the use of freon.

I have never heard that the non-freon foam worked better, anyplace, other than your post. Please give a reference(s).
38 posted on 04/23/2003 2:16:09 AM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob; mrmargaritaville; friendly; snopercod; wirestripper
I have never heard that the non-freon foam worked better, anyplace, other than your post. Please give a reference(s).

I've never worked for NASA, but have toiled in the hardware side of the commercial computer industry with large multi-million-dollar data centers installing and maintaining everything from mainframes to clustered PC's. Prior to 1985, most manufacturers used a freon-based wash to clean off the flux used on the solder-wave machines that were integral to the manufacture of the circuit boards and their components. All of the US-based manufacturers had severe problems thereafter with elevated failures that were directly attributed to the freon phaseout, and most of those failures happened months after they were installed in production systems at client accounts.

I too would like to know what worked as well as freon.

39 posted on 04/23/2003 3:16:35 AM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional.)
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To: brityank
I worked with a high quality test lab at KSC, called Wiltec, responsible for most of the parts cleaning, and chemical analysis for the space center, and after extensive testing, about 1 year, they couldn't find anything which worked as well as freon. I even got them a special $350,000 spectro-analysis machine, and they couldn't find anything better than pure water, which took 8 times as long to clean and 8 times as long to dry, as freon, and had 3 times as many 'dirty' rejects.
40 posted on 04/23/2003 4:53:46 AM PDT by XBob
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