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Physics looks for new Einstein as nature rewrites laws of universe
Times Newspapers Ltd. ^ | September 9 2001 | Jonathan Leake

Posted on 09/09/2001 1:05:44 PM PDT by telos

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To: KayEyeDoubleDee
I trust you don't think I agree with the manipulative Berry; I have faith the pursuit of truth will lead to God. At any rate, these scientific/religious/philosophic exercises move me toward faith. I am expecting no Heaven on earth.
21 posted on 09/09/2001 3:09:36 PM PDT by telos
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To: telos
I have faith the pursuit of truth will lead to God.

At which point we will tranq him, tag his ear and release him back into the wild
to monitor his migration and mating habits.

22 posted on 09/09/2001 3:16:08 PM PDT by Storm Orphan
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To: dynamitehack,telos
Just passing along what I learned from another FReeper (I forgot who).

(This place is an info gold mine!)

23 posted on 09/09/2001 3:19:02 PM PDT by StriperSniper
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To: longshadow
At the conference Hawking dismissed the idea of a series of big bangs on the grounds that it extended into the infinite past and so could never have a beginning.
PH, I know that this isn't what you wanted to hear.

They have no evidence. I'm still in the game.

24 posted on 09/09/2001 3:42:26 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: Storm Orphan
How can we, if we are dead?
25 posted on 09/09/2001 3:42:35 PM PDT by telos
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To: telos
Just a wee joke.
26 posted on 09/09/2001 3:44:08 PM PDT by Storm Orphan
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To: longshadow
Among the ideas facing revision is Einstein's belief that the speed of light must always be the same - 186,000 miles a second in a vacuum. There is growing evidence that light moved much faster during the early stages of our universe.
This doesn't bother me. In the very early universe, light could have moved faster. That's virtually implied by cosmological inflation. As long as no causality violations are involved, I see no problems. Now, of course, there are definite problems if we start traveling or communicating faster than light. But initially, photons moving out to the horizon faster than c, that's no big deal, theoretically. Or am I missing something?
27 posted on 09/09/2001 3:47:57 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: StriperSniper
Close those tags.
28 posted on 09/09/2001 3:49:33 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
Ooops! My bad, thank you.
Gotta look at results, not just the preview.
Will repeat 99 more times offline.
29 posted on 09/09/2001 4:03:15 PM PDT by StriperSniper
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To: Storm Orphan
Oh, I know; me, too;)
30 posted on 09/09/2001 4:15:12 PM PDT by telos
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To: PatrickHenry
But initially, photons moving out to the horizon faster than c, that's no big deal, theoretically. Or am I missing something?

I believe it does pose a problem, in that our method of "divining" the properties of the Big Bang is by projecting backwards in time the currently expanding Universe and applying the Theory General Relativity to see what the conditions must have been in earlier stages of the Universe's evolution. It seems to me that one cannot hold the belief that General Relativity is valid all the way back to the BB AND concurrently believe that at some earlier time in the history of the Universe light traveled at a speed >c, as the constancy of the speed of light is an assumption which underlies Special Relativity, which is nothing more than General Relativity in the absence gravity.

In other words, it seems to me that this would constitute asserting that Relativity was both true and NOT true at some point in the history of the Universe. This seems untenable, but perhaps there's more to the story that I don't understand.

31 posted on 09/09/2001 5:04:28 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: longshadow
It seems to me that one cannot hold the belief that General Relativity is valid all the way back to the BB AND concurrently believe that at some earlier time in the history of the Universe light traveled at a speed >c, as the constancy of the speed of light is an assumption which underlies Special Relativity, which is nothing more than General Relativity in the absence gravity.

I was making a one-time only exception during the brief period of cosmological inflation. I'm still reading Guth, so I'm fuzzy on this, but I thought that ftl expansion of everything is implied at that time.

32 posted on 09/09/2001 5:39:41 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
The universe that God created is both awe-inspiring and unexplainable.
33 posted on 09/09/2001 5:55:38 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: PatrickHenry, Physicist
I was making a one-time only exception during the brief period of cosmological inflation. I'm still reading Guth, so I'm fuzzy on this, but I thought that ftl expansion of everything is implied at that time.

You have me at a disadvantage, in that I have NOT read Guth at all. Notwithstanding that, I think I see the problem.

The "inflation" does proceed FTL. It is an inflation of space itself, and thus no matter (AFAIK) is being shunted around at FTL speeds, and no information is transferred FTL; hence, no violation of the Theory of Relativity.

If Guth says otherwise, I'll defer to his wisdom on the subject, but that's what I think is going on. Neither light (nor matter) is travelling FTL during the inflation, but the fabric of space does..... no violation; no harm.

I similarly defer to "Physicist" if he has a correction to my remarks.

34 posted on 09/09/2001 6:01:38 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: longshadow
No one needs to worry about the turtles. No temporally infinite universe is going to stop them from stacking all of the way down.
35 posted on 09/09/2001 6:09:51 PM PDT by Romestamo
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To: Romestamo
. . . temporally infinite universe . . .

I trust "temporally infinite" was a typo. Surely you meant "temporarily infinite."

</silly mode> (Don't shoot!)

36 posted on 09/09/2001 6:34:30 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: longshadow
The "inflation" does proceed FTL. It is an inflation of space itself , and thus no matter (AFAIK) is being shunted around at FTL speeds, and no information is transferred FTL; hence, no violation of the Theory of Relativity.

I too defer to Physicist. But I think that the inflationary expansion of space -- you're correct in that -- does involve moving those photons, which are in space. Perhaps this is a minor quibble to prevent Enstein from spinning in his grave. And as I tried to say before, this doesn't involve transferring information FTL, because it's strictly one-way, and no one is "out there" to receive this information. Thus no causality violations. If causality is preserved, I can sleep easy.

37 posted on 09/09/2001 6:36:17 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: All
The universe is not expanding, contrary to popular myth. It is a closed system in which things die. If the universe were ever expanding--creating itself out of nothing--there would be no laws, no physics, and nothing to guage anything by. See Exodus 28-40 for the dimension of the pyramid shaped universe (it may be a cone, but most likely a pyramid shape).
38 posted on 09/09/2001 6:42:34 PM PDT by bryan1276
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To: StriperSniper
I don't believe E=MC^2. How do you measure the output?Please tell the committee. thanks. parsy.
39 posted on 09/09/2001 6:48:52 PM PDT by parsifal
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To: telos
Why should we measure the Universe?

Got something better to do with your time? Like count Bonds HRs? Or is that measuring the universe as well?

40 posted on 09/09/2001 6:49:23 PM PDT by RightWhale
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