Posted on 05/24/2019 5:03:04 PM PDT by ameribbean expat
The government that did the most to upset the US election, was the US government.
It comes down to the word of a man who has been convicted in the United States of lying to the FBI versus the word of a man who has served his country with distinction for forty years, and who has a personal history of utter commitment to both the Australian-United States alliance, and conservative politics.
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You do not understand the absolute bunk that is the US jurisprudence system. We have a justice system similar to the USSR’s and it is a tragedy.
Well, he didn't. They discussed more than just that. That may have been the only bit that anybody is interested in, but it's not all that was discussed.
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Papo was set up. We have yet to see the transcripts of all the recordings made by the FBI while baiting him.
Nor do we have any idea what "the man who has served his country with distinction for forty years" did behind the scenes. I'm assuming you were not there and are not Aussie intelligence service with access to what happened. I'm not.
I've no doubt it will come out.
Then we will have something to discuss factually.
Until then, it is opinion.
My opinion is that the UK and Australia spied on the Trump Campaign, family and associates to circumvent US laws on doing so.
If so, Australia and the UK will need to be reminded about what it means to be an ally.
Already, Italy and the UK have fired intelligence officers. Australian may follow suit.
And finally, if Trump says Australia should be investigated, it is likely he knows what they did.
best,
PS - being in office is not serving. It is being paid to wield power and influence.
No, I don't.
But I know Papadopoulous plead guilty so I don't see much reason to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If he was innocent and he plead guilty - well, frankly that alone would make him a liar.
One way or the other, I can't see any good reason to trust his word on anything.
You know the thing about this conspiracy theory - what it is likely to achieve in the end if anything is driving a wedge between the United States and some of its closest allies.
I wonder whose interest that is in?
Just today on Freerepublic, I've seen Freepers attacking not just Alexander Downer in Australia, but Boris Johnson in the UK for alleged involvement in this 'plot'. These men are, to be frank, some of the United State's government best friends in allied countries - and they are being attacked based on this conspiracy nonsense.
If I was of a conspiratorial frame of mind, I'd be asking who gains from that.
It's possible Papadopoulous was set up. I just don't believe Alex Downer had any part of it. To me, that's an absurd proposition that flies in the face of common sense.
Nor do we have any idea what "the man who has served his country with distinction for forty years" did behind the scenes.
No - but we do know what he has said happened, and I can't see any good reason to doubt it, except for conspiracy laden nonsense.
There was nothing inappropriate in Downer meeting with Papadopoulous. It's slightly unusual that a senior official would meet with somebody so junior, but that's easily enough explained by the fact that Papadopolous came into social contact with ones of Downer's staff (Erika Thompson) through a mutual acquaintance, Christian Cantor, and mentioned he worked for Donald Trump. I believe Papadopoulous asked for the meeting, but there's room for debate on that but even if was the other way around, it's not a nefarious meeting or anything.
There is also nothing inappropriate about Downer passing on any information from that meeting to Canberra. In fact, that is part of his job.
I'm assuming you were not there and are not Aussie intelligence service with access to what happened. I'm not.
No, but I have worked as a diplomat for Australia - as a military attache with some contact with intelligence on occasions - nothing particularly sinister or secret or I wouldn't be able to talk about it. I worked in protocol more than anything else. So I do know how the system works and the idea that a High Commissioner was doing stuff like is being alleged is ridiculous.
My opinion is that the UK and Australia spied on the Trump Campaign, family and associates to circumvent US laws on doing so.
I can't speak to the UK at all on this. I'm inclined to doubt most of what I'm reading, but the SIS are a weird bunch and I couldn't rule out them doing something weird. But I really can't see any likelihood of Australian involvement or any reason to think there was. Downer met Papadopoulous - sure. He met lots and lots of people for all sorts of different reasons. And if they said anything interesting, of course, he reported that. It's not espionage and it's not nefarious.
Could I be absolutely sure somebody in Australian intelligence didn't do something they shouldn't? Of course not. It would surprise me, but I wouldn't know. Downer being involved or even aware of it, is something entirely different.
Your intelligence services and ours have done a lot of terrible things throughout history. I love your Australians shows. One thing is common amongst the shows and why I like them so much is your distrust in our government and your government to do the right thing.
Australians have as little faith in their government’s actions and secrets as we do here in America. With all the information out now, a group of government intelligence officials in the United States attempted a coup and failing that tried to take down a sitting President. Is it stretch that they manipulated foreign officials to be able to spy on Americans on foreign soil. No.
Thanks - my question is why bring it up at all???
If that detail wasn’t the reason for the meet, what were the stated reason(s)? A 20 something nobody doesn’t just get a meet with a Downer level diplomat, irrespective of a potential tangential connection to then likely candidate Trump.
And if that detail wasn’t the reason, how did it come up? Again, pretty random.... “...hey on another note, Russians have dirt on Hillary...”
No, this doesn’t follow. It’s unnatural. They were both tricked or coerced or both.
It’s all about to come out, thankfully.
The most ridiculous thing about this whole narrative is the idea that there was any need for “dirt” on Clinton after she and her aides had already been caught mishandling classified information, stonewalling investigators, ignoring subpoenas and destroying evidence.
It makes no sense that if none of that was impairing her campaign, that anyone could think some additional dirt from the Russians would do the trick.
If that detail wasn’t the reason for the meet, what were the stated reason(s)? A 20 something nobody doesn’t just get a meet with a Downer level diplomat, irrespective of a potential tangential connection to then likely candidate Trump.
You have to think of the timing. This meeting occurred the week Donald Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee for President - it was a week after the Indiana primary which Trump one and when Ted Cruz dropped leaving Trump with pretty much an open run at the nomination.
At this time, Downer is told by one of his staff that there is a man in London who is part of the Trump campaign who would like to meet him.
Why wouldn't Downer agree to an informal meeting in that situation? Sure, it may not come to anything, but it's a worth an hour of his time just in case it leads to a useful contact with a man who works for somebody who within a year has a reasonable chance of being the President of the United States.
At times, yes.
Here's the thing. I'm a retired officer of the Royal Australian Navy. I also did some diplomatic work in my time as a result of that.
If I believed Australian intelligence had engaged in operations against the United States - it honestly would not shock me terribly. We have an intelligence service. Spying is what they do. I also wouldn't be terribly shocked if I found out the US was engaged in operations against Australia.
We're friendly nations - but sovereign nations have a primary duty to themselves that goes over and above their duty to their friends and allies.
So - if I believed Australia had done what some people seem to be accusing us of, as a proud and patriotic Australian, my basic response would be - so what? Australia first. Our allies second - and I expect all of them to have the same attitude.
But the thing is... what is being described in this case is, frankly, ridiculous. That's why I have a problem with it. It doesn't make sense. This type of operation - if it happened - would not involve the High Commissioner, the former Australian Foreign Minister.
That's a joke.
When you look at what happened - in essence, Alexander Downer had a meeting with George Papadopolous. And he reported what Papadopoulous said to Canberra.
There's nothing nefarious or inappropriate about that.
Attempts to paint it as something suspicious are nonsense.
And where do they come from? They basically come from George Papadopoulous who, in my view, for whatever reason, said more than he should have said in a meeting with Downer - and doesn't want to take responsibility for doing so, so he's trying to divert attention from his own lack of self control and common sense and keeping his mouth shut, into some suggestion he was manipulated.
To me, it looks like he fell into the all too common trap of wanting to seem more important than he really was - and for that reason he was indiscreet and said things he probably shouldn't have.
But I know Papadopoulous plead guilty so I don’t see much reason to give him the benefit of the doubt.
If he was innocent and he plead guilty - well, frankly that alone would make him a liar.
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I know, it looks bad for those outside, but in this country people are forced to plead guilty to avoid bankruptcy and long prison sentences on trumped up charges. This is normal in the US. The judiciary is used as a weapon. We are about four steps from the USSR with the rot in the judiciary. We live in fear. Seriously.
Read a bit on Mark Steyn and his legal issues as he attempts to find justice in the American Judicial system. Conrad Black is another. I see this all the time locally too.
Let me give you an example: person I know was out with friends in another state. Fight broke out in the bar, a large venue. The police came in and arrested everyone in the bar. All were charged. Many pled to avoid costs of defense, and paid fines (shake down). Person I knew was licensed in this state, and would lose license if there was a smirch on his record. Costs to fight the case ran into the 15K range. To defend self against a corrupt judiciary.
This kind of thing happens regularly. On the federal side it is worse. They pull 15 to 30 charges against someone and threaten life imprisonment. They drop all charges except 2 or 3 and the grateful shlub pleads and thinks jail or probation is a good deal, EVEN WHEN INNOCENT.
I’d love to hear President Trump say that...”You’re either with us or against us”...the Bushes would go ballistic, tho
That’s good...Really good...”Demographic Warfare”
we do know what he has said happened, and I can't see any good reason to doubt it, except for conspiracy laden nonsense.
No, but I have worked as a diplomat for Australia
Frankly, you do not sound objective.
So I do know how the system works and the idea that a High Commissioner was doing stuff like is being alleged is ridiculous.
Yeah, I would have said that about the FBI and the Presidency too... and I would have been wrong.
But I really can't see any likelihood of Australian involvement or any reason to think there was.
I can think of several reaons.
One, they are part of 5 eyes and can spy on Americans, share the info, and circumvent the rules here.
Two, perhaps the President of the US asked them to cooperate and made up some believable reason.
Time will tell.
Normally, there would be nothing nefarious about it (maybe). However, our intelligence used this exact moment in time to start a coup attempt against the President of the United States. The simple dinner exchange supposedly was the catalyst that started an intelligence coup (Crossfire Hurricane).
The reason people don't believe this was an innocent exchange is because of the previous meetings by other foreign intel agencies to set up Papadopolous using a honey trap and Mifsud.
It might have been a pure happenstance that Downer meets Papadopoulos after he was being set up by Mifsud to take down the Trump campaign, but you can see how we in America have doubts. Especially since multiple informants/spies were run against Papadopoulos in London days before.
I know the timing.
What staff notified him of the random 20 something..and how did said staff come to know a random 20 something would have such “valuable” info? Did papa “want to meet him”? Or was that even more set up akin to the Trump tower set up? Im aware of who and how it happened BUT that story us not cogent. There is no motivation except to contrive a reason for a meet.
Someone of Downer’s stature (as you’ve pointecd out) is not the guy who would respond this way to a nobody. Downer requests to see who he wants when it comes to 20 something nobodys.
And then the completely random “...by the by, Russians have dirt on hillary...”
No where near realistic.
I appreciate your engagement and I’m glad it’s all about to come out.
I’ll stand by my assertion that they were both tricked, coerced, or both to go through with this meet.
The Judiciary is just as corrupt in Australia according to my source “Rake.” Crazy legal show down under.
They have high ranking TV showing the corruption of their legal system just like in America. Even though our shows have a liberal slant the core belief of corruption is prevalent. Their shows reflect the same, distrust in their government and legal system.
You mean like the very head of the Australian government?
You're pissing off the entire membership. Maybe just STFU now.
I still find it difficult to believe our ultra-conservative Downer was involved in the above...
Alexander John Gosse Downer AC (born 9 September 1951) is a former Australian politician and diplomat who was leader of the Liberal Party from 1994 to 1995, Minister for Foreign Affairs from 1996 to 2007, and High Commissioner to the United Kingdom from 2014 to 2018. Downer was born in Adelaide, the son of Sir Alick Downer and the grandson of Sir John Downer. After periods working for the Bank of New South Wales and with the diplomatic service, he was appointed executive director of the Australian Chamber of Commerce in 1983. He also served as an advisor to Liberal leaders Malcolm Fraser and Andrew Peacock. Downer was elected to parliament at the 1984 federal election, winning the Division of Mayo in South Australia. He was added to the opposition frontbench in 1987. After the Coalition lost the 1993 election, John Hewson's position as leader of the Liberal Party came into question. Downer successfully challenged for the leadership in May 1994, thus becoming Leader of the Opposition...
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