Posted on 07/26/2018 11:39:45 AM PDT by GonzoII
[All was not sweetness and light in E. Europe after VE day, and both borders and populations moved with lots of bloodshed, ethnic cleansing and hard feelings left over for generations.
If you think that the current border between Ukraine and Russia is worth going to WW4 over, go for it. A border that has shifted like the wind a dozen times in the century alone.]
As we all know, Russia’s tiny land area, at ~4x the rest of Europe combined, isn’t enough for Russians to feel secure. Its evolution from a small kingdom on the banks of the Volga many centuries ago has left it ever more insecure and vulnerable to invasion. We should therefore support Russia’s efforts to achieve a lasting peace by standing aside as it adds whatever territory is necessary to that end. Appeasement is a dirty word among the paranoid for no good reason - it really ought to be spelled aPEACEment.
Trump paying back Putin for helping in the election.
I have more important issues to worry about. The Crimeans voted to leave. Not my business, nor is the outsider-sponsored coup that brought that new regime in Ukraine to power that immediately imposed language restrictions that made the Russians in Crimea worried. If I was an ethnic Russian of Crimea, I would have voted to become part of Russia too. This is a non-issue for me as a U.S. citizen.
Ah, I was wondering how long it would take until someone got to the heart of the issue!
If the US & UK had been sensible, they would have “secured” Ukraine and let them keep a few nukes when Russia could not do much about it. Donbass might have been a little problematic, but it was until the Russians flooded in fighters NOT monolithically pro-Russian to the point of everybody wanting to be a part of Russia, by any means. (Hey, several posters - talk about “rewriting history” and all that...)
The biggest problem now is that the US / UK guarantees were shown to be worth less than that coffee you mentioned, which one and all better believe countries like Saudi Arabia and others take serious note of. Just look at Saudi’s military budget, for example. Plus, anyone with any sense knows they’ve talked to the Paks about nukes...
A large number of FReepers somehow have learned nothing from history, and think that the US can simply allow the rest of the world to arm up (in too many cases with nukes), and then fight it out. I guess they are ok with their sons and daughters, or maybe their grandkids, being radioactive or genes damaged from fallout, if their descendants are not vaporized outright. This is, long term, 10x the danger compared to Russia being upset over Crimea or Donbass (which could be worked out had Obama & others not put us into such a weak position.)
P.S. Someone show me proof of significant (significant!) movement by the Crimean’s, on their own, toward separation from Ukraine, well BEFORE the Russians moved in.
If you really think Maiden would not have happened without outside interference, you are either ignorant of the actual situation or simply willfully ignoring it. The “outside interference” occurred, and it was approximately analogous to present day* Hillary Clinton trying to ride a 1 ton rodeo bull...
*Who knows, she might have been good at it, 40 years ago! ;-)
Oops — sp — that’s “Maidan”. It’s getting late. :-)
No, actually I am in favor of keeping land legitimately ceded in treaties, like the Southwest was.
The argument you are making is more in line with those who want to take the Southwest back for Mexico, after all, that land was theirs originally, and is still occupied by a large number of people of Mexican ethnicity, so by your reasoning, they have every right to their “reconquista”, even if it is by extralegal means.
If you really think Maiden would not have happened without outside interference, you are either ignorant of the actual situation or simply willfully ignoring it. The “outside interference” occurred, and it was approximately analogous to present day* Hillary Clinton trying to ride a 1 ton rodeo bull...
Nonsense. Between the western/EU leaning Ukrainians and the nationalists Maidan was bound to happen sooner or later due to the subservience to Russia and corruption of Yanukovych. In fact, given the opportunity of an EU passport I have no doubt even Donbas would have voted to stay in Ukraine.
Oh look.
Another braindead neocon all upset that people actually study history.
It’s pretty damned stupid to whine about someone posting a series of true statement that every military veteran who actually took the optiona proscribed professional reading courses during the cold war could tell you.
But you had to go there didn’t you lodi? Do you know what a jackass you look like to every troop who has read our expositions on what the Soviet Union taught in their war colleges, and then followed it up with further reading?
LMAO. I just spent a month in Russia for the World Cup. I’m quite confident I am more familiar with the situation in Ukraine and Russia than a few armchair isolationist and/or gone native married to Russian women FReepers.
The argument you are making is more in line with those who want to take the Southwest back for Mexico, after all, that land was theirs originally, and is still occupied by a large number of people of Mexican ethnicity, so by your reasoning, they have every right to their “reconquista”, even if it is by extralegal means.
Spot on. And don’t expect Democrats to wait. They will use this reasoning to undermine the rule of law in places like California very soon. Then later Texas, South Florida, etc.
No doubt our checkers playing armchair isolationists will have forgotten all about their position on Crimea at that point, of course.
What was that like...was it better than you thought it would be?
You call my comment “nonsense”, but we are both saying Maidan would have happened anyway, due to internal factors, and you spell out items much the same as I would present as support for my viewpoint! We even agree about Donbas if it had voted, early on. I think you missed my word “not”.
I will restate: Outside interference occurred, but it was pretty much irrelevant as a major “force” in events. Hillary might as well have been trying to ride that 1 ton rodeo bull...
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