China will have the world's most powerful naval gun ready for war by 2025

CNBC ^ | 6/21/2018 | Amanda Macias

[PreciousLiberty]

China is currently testing the world's most powerful naval gun and people with direct knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report say it will be ready for war by 2025.

Railguns use electromagnetic energy instead of gunpowder to propel rounds, and China's is capable of striking a target 124 miles away at speeds of up to 1.6 miles per second, according to the report. For perspective, a shot fired from Washington, D.C., could reach Philadelphia in under 90 seconds.

Railguns have long appeared on Russian, Iranian and U.S. military wish lists as cost-effective weapons that give navies the might of a cannon with the range of a precision-guided missile.

The rounds used in China's railgun cost between $25,000 and $50,000 each, according to the intelligence assessment. Though not an exact comparison since the weapons have different technologies, the U.S. Navy's Tomahawk cruise missile has an estimated price tag of $1.4 million each.

China's railgun was first seen in 2011 and underwent testing in 2014, according to people who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity. Between 2015 and 2017 the weapon was calibrated to strike at extended ranges, increasing its lethality. By December 2017, the weapon was successfully mounted on a warship and began at-sea testing, a feat no other nation has accomplished.

[PreciousLiberty]

The US needs to get its military priorities straight. We have working railgun tech. The X-47B project is also a potential game changer, providing robotic, carrier-based stealthy strike aircraft.

As of today, the railgun looks to be abandoned, and the X-47B has been repurposed as a robotic refueling station. At that rate, China will eat our lunch.

Sad!

[SoCal Pubbie]

Despite What You’ve Heard, The Navy Isn’t Ditching Its Railgun And Budget Docs Prove It

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18489/despite-what-youve-heard-the-navy-isnt-ditching-its-railgun-and-budget-docs-prove-it

[CondoleezzaProtege]

China has also signed a major space agreement with Russia.

Our President and his Defense team are on overdrive making up for much lost time.

[PIF]

By December 2017, the weapon was successfully mounted on a warship

---

A barge actually. The Drive had the photos and story in it months ago.
Is This Chinese Navy Ship Equipped With An Experimental Electromagnetic Railgun?

[Vinnie]

Another stolen military system.

[tomkat]

Tomahawk (etc) =  Chinese rail gun 

[PapaBear3625]

Railgun is not going to be useful unless it’s accurate. They will need a guided projectile whose electronics will survive the acceleration, and the electromagnetic energy used.

[cpdiii]

Such a weapon as this is formidable against a non technological navy. Our aircraft carriers are formidable against a non technological nation force. In a battle between high technological nations if you can see it from space it dies.

Theirs die as do ours. We can shoot each other with great guns on the surface and with most sophisticated missiles that are very good. This is normal warfare. In warfare between great nations of technological skill and precision nuclear weapons, death will come from sub orbital rockets with the ability to target a moving ship.

All capital ships on each side will die in a conflict between advanced nuclear nations. At this point it is rather irrelevant as each would have launched weapons against all military and civilian targets of importance and each society would cease to exist as a functioning nation.

Mutually assured destruction works between rational nations. This is why Iran must never have the bomb. Their leaders are not rational. They are Bat Sh-t crazy.

[Vinnie]

I have questions as to the railgun’s effectiveness.
How much velocity bleeds off by friction, terminal velocity on long trajectories.
Unless there is a homing device, unlikely, in the nose it would be worthless against moving targets at any long range.

Very impressive up close, but at range?

[pepsi_junkie]

I'm assuming that a ballistic projectile shot from a ship will be small and flying at relatively low altitude, in the radar's sea clutter noise. Sort of like trying to overhear a whispered conversation from across the room in a bar during happy hour. In other words pretty difficult to spot and track. Also hard to shoot if you do manage to acquire it. I mean, are you going to shoot a missile meant for hitting aircraft and other missiles at a bullet? Even if that works, missiles are big and you can only carry so many. You'll run out of missiles way faster than they'll run out of bullets.

On the other hand, it would have to be accurate. Who cares if they shot a bunch of stuff past you? Chucking something really hard and far doesn't mean you hit anything. Can they hit anything?

[PreciousLiberty]

"Such a weapon as this is formidable against a non technological navy. Our aircraft carriers are formidable against a non technological nation force. In a battle between high technological nations if you can see it from space it dies."

I'm not sure of that. The major threat against our carriers is a cruise missile swarm. In order for that to work, you have to have enough launchers in range. Our carriers are protected by battle groups with numerous anti-air, anti-missile, and anti-satellite assets. That is not to mention anti-missile defense from aircraft.

If things go nuclear, that is a whole different ball game. Let's hope cooler heads prevail.

As an aside, it's worth considering that many, many billions of dollars are spent on "black" programs. I hope that we're getting our money's worth and we have game changing military capabilities of which regular citizens have no knowledge.

"Mutually assured destruction works between rational nations. This is why Iran must never have the bomb. Their leaders are not rational. They are Bat Sh-t crazy."

As to this point, agreed that Iran should not get nuclear weapons. I'm not sure how achievable that is in today's world, where (let's face it) getting the bomb is becoming easier and easier. The US did it with 1940s technology...

The good news is that if Iran uses the bomb, it will be erased from the face of the Earth fairly shortly afterwards... :-)

[davidb56]

Correct, and it requires the ship to become a floating generator to run it.

[Original Lurker]

I doubt stolen but rather transferred via pols and Wall Street.

[TheNext]

A laser is a billion times faster.

Big Governments like Communist China build Big Junk.

[BBell]

So who did they steal/acquire it from?

[Robert A Cook PE]

Laser is limited to straight line shots.

Less than 20,000 yards - since the target has been hull up (visible to the deck) to shoot with a laser. You can (barely) see masts at longer ranges, but can’t hit them with power due to salt spray, mists, clouds, fog.

[RitchieAprile]

they are clever enough to have devised their own. they have physics books and talent.

[BBell]

I don’t believe they can devise much on their own. They seem incapable of it. They take others ideas and capitalize on it. But of course that is how the world works.

[PreciousLiberty]

"I have questions as to the railgun’s effectiveness. How much velocity bleeds off by friction, terminal velocity on long trajectories. Unless there is a homing device, unlikely, in the nose it would be worthless against moving targets at any long range. Very impressive up close, but at range?"

Actually it looks like there are big problems with it, and the Navy should probably kill the program. Somebody with a high rank must be in love with the idea...

Looking to get some information to give an informed answer I ran across this:

http://www.g2mil.com/rail_gun_fraud.htm

It makes quite a few great points, which follow from basic physics and engineering:

• The projectiles are small, inert, and effectively are armor piercing. They will probably just punch through the target ship without doing much damage in most cases, and will not have much blast effect against troops.
• It seems likely they'll lose too much speed when used as direct fires over more than a few hundred yards.
• Any kind of guidance is highly problematic, making hits against any kind of moving target with indirect fire pretty well impossible.
• Rail guns are advertised as good against aircraft, but they're actually poor.

It seems the current tech is too low velocity, and the problem is even if you get higher velocities air resistance increases as the square of velocity. That means velocity falls off faster the faster you push a projectile. It also means you get drastically more heating the faster you push a projectile. Rail erosion is already a problem, and will get much worse with higher velocities.

All in all, it's probably good that China is wasting its time with railguns... ;-)

As a closing thought, "The Rail Gun Fallacy" did have a suggested replacement that sounds pretty good to me:

The answer to the US Navy's needs can be found in the past. The Navy developed and successfully tested the rapid fire MK-71 8-inch naval gun in the 1970s. (pictured). This can provide three times more firepower with twice the range of today's 5-inch guns that deliver just 70lb projectiles. Proven 8-inch rounds can be fitted with GPS guidance or laser spot sensors that were developed for 5-inch rounds. An 8-inch projectile is far more cost effective since it can use the same expensive guidance as a 5-inch round, yet deliver four times more explosive since the projectile is much larger so the guidance system is a smaller percentage of the payload.

This would provide a huge leap forward, although its low-cost will disappoint those who profit from perpetual weapons development projects. The Navy determined the MK-71 could easily fit on Arleigh Burke class destroyers that are still under construction. During the Vietnam war, US Navy ships fired 8-inch "super heavy" 335lb projectiles out to 18 miles and 112lb LLRB "arrow" projectiles at Mach 3.5 out to 41 miles! The MK-71 gun may not excite armchair dreamers, but its basic 260lb 8-inch round can deliver four times the explosive power two times farther than current 5-inch guns or railguns.

I wonder how receptive President Trump would be to saving a bunch of money and having a more effective Navy...

[RitchieAprile]

we didn’t believe the Japanese could either, in 1940.
their fighters, torpedo planes and torpedoes outclassed ours,
and their tactics were brilliantly conceived and executed.

why would you think the Chinese would be less capable? their kids are shaming ours in hard sciences and engineering.

underestimate an adversary at your peril..