"Wall of Separation"-WHOSE Idea Was It & WHAT Did It Mean?

American Minute with Bill Federer ^ | January 1, 2018 | Bill Federer

[Jim Robinson]

On JANUARY 1, 1802, the people of Cheshire, Massachusetts, sent a giant block of cheese to President Thomas Jefferson, being presented by the famous Baptist preacher, John Leland.

John Leland was then invited to preach to the President and Congress in the U.S. Capitol. The subject of his talk was "separation of church and state."

Baptists had been particularly persecuted in colonial Virginia, as Francis L. Hawks wrote in Ecclesiastical History (1836):

"No dissenters in Virginia experienced for a time harsher treatment than the Baptists ...

They were beaten and imprisoned ...

Cruelty taxed ingenuity to devise new modes of punishment and annoyance."

So many Baptist ministers were harassed, and their church services disrupted, that James Madison introduced legislation in Virginia's Legislature on October 31, 1785, titled "A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship," which passed in 1789.

Colonial Virginia had an "establishment" of the Church of England, or "Anglican Church" from 1606 to 1786.

Establishment meant:

-mandatory membership; -mandatory taxes to support it; and -no one could hold public office unless they were a member.

Over time, lax enforcement allowed "dissenting" religious groups to enter Virginia, the first being Presbyterians and Quakers, followed by German Lutherans, Mennonites and Moravian Brethren, then finally Baptists.

John Leland, who considered running for Congress, wanted an Amendment added to the new United States Constitution which would protect religious liberty.

Leland reportedly met with James Madison near Orange, Virginia.

Upon Madison's promise to introduce what would become the First Amendment, Leland agreed to persuade Baptists to get involved in politically supporting Madison.

John Leland wrote in Rights of Conscience Inalienable, 1791, that they wanted not just toleration, but equality:

"Every man must give account of himself to God, and therefore every man ought to be at liberty to serve God in a way that he can best reconcile to his conscience.

If government can answer for individuals at the day of judgment, let men be controlled by it in religious matters; otherwise, let men be free."

John Leland was following in the tradition of the Baptist Roger Williams, who fled England to Massachusetts, then fled to found Rhode Island.

The situation was that Puritans were persecuted by the established Anglican Church in England. They fled in a Great Migration to Massachusetts, where they proceeded to establish Puritanism.

Supreme Court Justice Hugo Lafayette Black wrote in Engel v. Vitale, 1962:

"When some of the very groups which had most strenuously opposed the established Church of England found themselves sufficiently in control of colonial governments in this country to write their own prayers into law, they passed laws making their own religion the official religion of their respective colonies."

Roger Williams who wrote in his Plea for Religious Liberty, 1644:

"The doctrine of persecution for cause of conscience is most contrary to the doctrine of Christ Jesus the Prince of Peace ...

God requireth not a uniformity of religion to be enacted and enforced in any civil state;

which enforced uniformity (sooner or later) is the greatest occasion of civil war, ravishing of conscience, persecution of Christ Jesus in his servants, and of the hypocrisy and destruction of millions of souls."

A few years later, Quaker founder of Pennsylvania William Penn wrote in England's Present Interest Considered, 1675:

"Force makes hypocrites, 'tis persuasion only that makes converts."

Following George Whitefield's First Great Awakening Revival, 1730-1755, a Second Great Awakening Revival took place between 1790-1840.

In Thomas Jefferson's county of Albemarle, Baptist, Presbyterian and Methodist revival meetings were held.

Even Jefferson's daughter, Mary, attended a Baptist revival preached by Lorenzo Dow.

On July 4, 1826, the editor of the Christian Watchman (Boston, MA) published an account:

"ANDREW TRIBBLE was the Pastor of a small Baptist Church, which held its monthly meetings at a short distance from Mr. JEFFERSON'S house, eight or ten years before the American Revolution.

Mr. JEFFERSON attended the meetings of the church for several months in succession, and after one of them, asked Elder TRIBBLE to go home and dine with him, with which he complied.

Mr. TRIBBLE asked Mr. JEFFERSON how he was pleased with their Church Government?

Mr. JEFFERSON replied, that it had struck him with great force, and had interested him much; that he considered it the only form of pure democracy that then existed in the world, and had concluded that it would be the best plan of Government for the American Colonies."

Thomas F. Curtis wrote in The Progress of Baptist Principles in the Last Hundred Years (Charleston, S.C.: Southern Baptist Publication Society, 1856):

"A gentleman ... in North Carolina ... knowing that the venerable Mrs. (Dolley) Madison had some recollections on the subject, asked her in regard to them.

She expressed a distinct remembrance of Mr. Jefferson speaking on the subject, and always declaring that it was a Baptist church from which these views were gathered."

President Calvin Coolidge stated at the 150th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1926:

"This preaching reached the neighborhood of Thomas Jefferson, who acknowledged that his 'best ideas of democracy' had been secured at church meetings."

During the Revolution, Anglican ministers had sided with King George III, who was head of the Anglican Church.

As a result, patriotic parishioners gained courage to migrate out of the "established" churches and filter into "dissenting" churches.

Jefferson was baptized, married and buried in the Anglican Church, as recorded in his family Bible, but in 1777 he started a dissenting church named the Calvinistical Reformed Church.

Jefferson drew up the bylaws of the church, which met in the Albemarle County Courthouse.

His idea was for it to be a "voluntary" church, supported only by the voluntary donations of those who attended.

This contrasted with the Anglican model of church support where citizen paid mandatory taxes to the government, which in turn dispensed funds to established churches.

Jefferson's memorandum book showed he contributed to the evangelical pastor of the Calvinistical Reformed Church, the Rev. Charles Clay.

Jefferson also gave generously to missionaries and various other churches:

"I have subscribed to the building of an Episcopal church, two hundred dollars, a Presbyterian, sixty dollars, and a Baptist, twenty-five dollars."

After the Revolution, the Virginia legislature rewrote its laws, removing all references to the King.

"Dissenting" churches lobbied Jefferson to take this opportunity to "disestablish" the Anglican Church.

Jefferson responded by writing his Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom.

In 1779, fellow member of Jefferson's Calvinistical Reformed Church, Col. John Harvie, introduced the bill in Virginia's Assembly.

It took seven years to pass.

Justice Hugo Black wrote in Engel v. Vitale, 1962:

"But the successful Revolution against English political domination was shortly followed by intense opposition to the practice of establishing religion by law.

This opposition crystallized rapidly into an effective political force in Virginia where the minority religious groups such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Quakers and Baptists had gained such strength that the adherents to the established Episcopal Church were actually a minority themselves.

In 1785-1786, those opposed to the established Church ... obtained the enactment of the famous 'Virginia Bill for Religious Liberty' by which all religious groups were placed on an equal footing."

After three of Jefferson's children died, his wife, Martha, died in 1782.

After her funeral, Jefferson suffered depression and withdrew from politics.

In his grief, he burned every letter he had with his wife and sequestered himself in his room for three weeks, only venturing out to ride horseback through the hills of his estate.

Jefferson's daughter, Martha 'Patsy' Jefferson, described how he wept for hours:

"In those melancholy rambles I was his constant companion ... a solitary witness to many a violent burst of grief ... the violence of his emotion ... to this day I do not describe to myself."

Trying to help, Congress asked Jefferson in 1784 to be the U.S. ambassador to France.

France was going through a period of "French infidelity" prior to its bloody French Revolution and Reign of Terror.

Upon returning to America, Jefferson entertained liberal "deist-Christian" ideas, though in later life he was described simply as a "liberal Anglican."

Jefferson's bill finally passed by Virginia's Assembly, January 16, 1786.

So significant was this, that Jefferson noted it on his gravestone as "The Statue of Virginia for Religious Freedom."

It stated:

"Almighty God hath created the mind free ...

All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments ... are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of religion,

who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in His Almighty power to do ...

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions, which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical ...

Be it enacted ... that no man shall ... suffer on account of his religious opinions."

Jefferson acquired a Qur'an in 1765, but after studying it, he only had praise for the morality of Jesus, as he wrote to William Canby, September 18, 1813:

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus."

Jefferson wrote to Jared Sparks, November 4, 1820:

"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man."

Jefferson wrote to Joseph Priestly, April 9, 1803, regarding Jesus:

"His system of morality was the most benevolent and sublime probably that has been ever taught, and consequently more perfect than those of any of the ancient philosophers."

Jefferson's belief that "the Holy Author of religion ... chose not to propagate it by coercions" is consistent with an account in the Gospel of John:

"Many of his disciples ... said, 'This is a hard saying; who can hear it?'

When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, 'Doth this offend you?' ...

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, 'Will ye also go away?'

Then Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

Jesus' example of being willing to let disbelievers voluntarily depart is in stark contrast with the coercion present in Islamic "ridda" apostasy laws, where Mohammed said:

"Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." (Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, No. 57)

Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, narrated by Abdullah:

"Allah's Apostle said, 'The blood of a Muslim ... cannot be shed except ... in three cases ... the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.'" (Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, Book 83, No. 17)

Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, narrated by Ikrima, stated:

"Ali burnt some people (hypocrites) ... No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" (Hadith Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4:260, Vol. 9, Book 84, No. 57)

Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari stated:

"The punishment for apostasy (riddah) is well-known in Islamic Sharee'ah. The one who leaves Islam will be asked to repent by the Sharee'ah judge in an Islamic country;

if he does not repent and come back to the true religion, he will be killed as a kafir and apostate, because of the command of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him): 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'" (Hadith Sahih al-Bukhari, 3017)

Baptist founder of Rhode Island, Roger Williams, wrote:

"That religion cannot be true which needs such instruments of violence to uphold it."

Jefferson's efforts to disestablish the Anglican Church in Virginia would never have passed had it not been for Methodist Bishop Francis Asbury splitting the popular Methodist movement away from the Anglican Church into its own denomination in 1785, forming the Methodist Episcopal Church.

Francis Asbury also ordained Richard Allen as the first black deacon, and preached the dedication service at Allen's "Mother Bethel" African Methodist Episcopal Church in 1794.

Virginia had notable leaders who resisted "disestablishing" the Anglican, or as it was now called, the Episcopal Church, such as Governor Patrick Henry.

This movement was later termed "anti-disestablishmentarianism."

Virginia built its first Jewish Synagogue, Kahal Kadosh Beth Shalome, in 1789.

Virginia built its first Catholic Church, St. Mary Church, in Alexandria in 1795.

John Leland then helped start Baptist churches in Connecticut--which was a State having the Congregational Church established from its founding in 1639 until 1818.

Baptists in Connecticut formed the Danbury Baptist Association which sent a letter to President Jefferson, October 7, 1801:

"Sir ... Our Sentiments are uniformly on the side of Religious Liberty

--That Religion is at all times and places a Matter between God and Individuals --That no man ought to suffer in Name, person or effects on account of his religious Opinions --That the legitimate Power of civil Government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor:

But Sir ... our ancient (Connecticut) charter, together with the Laws made coincident therewith ... are; that ... what religious privileges we enjoy (as Baptists) ... we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights ...

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the united States IS NOT the national Legislator

& also sensible that the national government CANNOT destroy the Laws of each State;

but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved President, which have had such genial Effect already, like the radiant beams of the Sun, will shine & prevail through all these States and all the world till Hierarchy and Tyranny be destroyed from the Earth ..."

In other words, Baptists hoped that Jefferson's sentiments which helped disestablish the Anglican Church in Virginia might also help disestablish the Congregational Church in Connecticut, and likewise influence all other States.

The Danbury Baptist letter to Jefferson continued:

"Sir ... we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the chair of State ... May God strengthen you for the arduous task which Providence & the voice of the people have called you ...

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator."

Jefferson replied with his famous letter, January 1, 1802, agreeing with the Danbury's Baptists, even repeating sections of their letter almost verbatim:

"Gentlemen ... Believing WITH YOU

--that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, --that he owes account to none other for faith or his worship, --that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions,

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'

thus building a wall of separation between Church and State ..."

Jefferson ended:

"Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience,

I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man."

Baptists were familiar with Jefferson's metaphor "wall of separation," as the Baptist founder of Rhode Island, Roger Williams, used it in his Bloody Tenet of Persecution for Conscience Sake, 1644:

"Jews under the Old Testament ... and ... Christians under the New Testament ... were both separate from the world;

and that when they have opened a gap in the hedge, or wall of separation, between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broken down the wall itself ...

And that therefore if He will ever please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world."

Jefferson viewed the "wall" as limiting the federal government from "inter-meddling" in church government, as explained in his letter to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808:

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted (prohibited) by the Constitution from inter-meddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.

This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States (10th Amendment) ..."

Jefferson continued:

"Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General (Federal) government ...

Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, and the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets."

Though Jefferson considered the Federal Government limited from "inter-meddling" with what was under States' jurisdiction, it was not limited from spreading religion in Federal territories, as on April 26, 1802, Jefferson's administration extended a 1787 act of Congress where lands were designated:

"For the sole use of Christian Indians and the Moravian Brethren missionaries for civilizing the Indians and promoting Christianity."

And again, December 3, 1803, during Jefferson's administration, Congress ratified a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians:

"Whereas the greater part of the said tribe have been baptized and received into the Catholic Church ... the United States will give annually, for seven years, one hundred dollars toward the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for said tribe the duties of his office, and also to instruct as many of their children as possible ...

And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars, to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church."

When Abigail Adams died, Thomas Jefferson wrote to her husband, John Adams, November 13, 1818:

"The term is not very distant, at which we are to deposit in the same cerement, our sorrows and suffering bodies, and to ascend in essence to an ecstatic meeting with the friends we have loved and lost, and whom we shall still love and never lose again.

God bless you and support you under your heavy affliction."

Twelve years before his death, Jefferson shared his personal views to Miles King, September 26, 1814:

"We have heard it said that there is not a Quaker or a Baptist, a Presbyterian or an Episcopalian, a Catholic or a Protestant in heaven; that on entering that gate, we leave those badges of schism behind ...

Let us be happy in the hope that by these different paths we shall all meet in the end. And that you and I may meet and embrace, is my earnest prayer."

Over time, brilliant legal minds have used Jefferson's words to prohibit Jefferson's beliefs.

Jefferson wrote in the Declaration:

"All men are endowed by their CREATOR ..."

yet in 2005, U.S. District Judge John E. Jones, in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, ruled students could not be taught of a CREATOR: "to preserve the separation of church and state."

Groups used Jefferson's phrase "separation of church and state" to remove national acknowledgments of God, despite Jefferson's warning against that very thing.

Inscribed on the Jefferson Memorial, Washington, DC is Jefferson's warning:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?

Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever."

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[GoldenState_Rose]

Will have to read this later, but keep State out of Church, not God out of State was what I took it to mean...

[Jim Robinson]

Amen.

[HLPhat]

Who?  The men who met in the Green Dragon Inn / Masonic hall.

 

What? Truth is Great and Will prevail.  No state-established "dominionism" required/allowed  among we free infidels of every denomination.

"...who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time;

 

...

 

 that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them. "

 

"I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD ETERNAL HOSTILITY TO EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN"

--The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
--Thomas Jefferson, 1786

https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=truth%20is%20great%20and%20will%20prevail%20if%20left%20to%20herself

 

[iontheball]

It is another example of how liberal leaning judges have twisted words, rewrote history, to make us believe that separation of church and state means the state is sacrosanct and superior to God and man.

[onedoug]

Baptist founder of Rhode Island, Roger Williams, wrote: "That religion cannot be true which needs such instruments of violence to uphold it."

Jefferson's use of the quran proved instrumental duing the waging of the wars of the Barbary pirates, which was something unknown of, or conveniently forgotten by enemy islamist Keith Ellison when he took his "oath" (taqiiya) of Congressional office on it.

Very interesting thread. Thanks for posting.

[Jamestown1630]

"Every man must give account of himself to God, and therefore every man ought to be at liberty to serve God in a way that he can best reconcile to his conscience."

An excellent quote.

[easternsky]

Very good Read, Thank you for posting and for allowing the Freedom we have here on Free Republic. God Bless you and yours in this coming year.

[polymuser]

Always good to refresh on this. Thanks.
No separation of church and state; .just no church reg’s by government.
We’re a republic, not a democracy (thank God!).
Rights are from God, not government.
Each person has rights, not groups (as a group).

[AFreeBird]

That’s how I’ve always looked at it.

Some one hundred years earlier, the European continent was embroiled in the 30 years war. Called a religious war between the Christian sects, though there was more to it. And of course the Church of England situation was the reason many made their way to these shores. The founders, students of history and the nature of men knew there could not be an established church.

It doesn’t matter what path they took to that conclusion, but thank God they did.

But it never meant that people of faith could not serve in government.

[tumblindice]

Here's to good King William, His strategy was deft, We met them on the battlefield, There were no Catholics left.

[Albion Wilde]

bump for later

[HLPhat]

>>But it never meant that people of faith could not serve in government.

The crux isn’t serving in government - it’s the fallible and uninspired frauds who had ~government serving THEMSELVES.

Kinda like the parasites Dwight Eisenhower warned us about in 1961.

The “it’s just a go@$%mned piece of paper” good-ol-shrub club.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

No discussion of this topic can fail to include

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists

The Final Letter, as Sent To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson

Jan. 1. 1802.

[GoldenState_Rose]

AFreeBird,

Prior to the ratification of the U.S. Constitution, most states had a “religious” test. The thinking was, if you are not accountable to God, how can you swear an oath on the Bible and continue to serve?

The tests were discriminatory especially of Catholics. Because early Americans feared they’d be loyal to the Pope, to Rome over the interests of the state or country...The prejudices stuck until Kennedy became the first Catholic president.

Here was NEW JERSEY’s take on religious tests:

1. From the CONSTITUTION of NEW JERSEY, 1776: “that there shall be no establishment of any one religious sect in this province, in preference to another; and that no Protestant inhabitant of this colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right, merely on account of his religious principles; but that all persons, professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect, who shall demean themselves peaceably under the government, as hereby established, shall be capable of being elected into office of profit or trust, or being a member of either branch of the legislature.........”

DELAWARE

From the CONSTITUTION of DELAWARE, 1776: “every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit: I, A.B., do profess faith in god the father, and in Jesus Christ his only son, and in the holy ghost, one god, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration”

more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_test

[arrogantsob]

JFK was the first and ONLY Catholic to be President.