Posted on 09/19/2015 6:13:19 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
“There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell.” So wrote the agnostic British philosopher Bertrand Russell in 1967. The idea of eternal punishment for sin, he further notes, is “a doctrine that put cruelty in the world and gave the world generations of cruel torture.”
His views are at least more consistent than religious philosopher John Hick, who refers to hell as a “grim fantasy” that is not only “morally revolting” but also “a serious perversion of the Christian Gospel.” Worse yet was theologian Clark Pinnock who, despite having regarded himself as an evangelical, dismissed hell with a rhetorical question: “How can one imagine for a moment that the God who gave His Son to die for sinners because of His great love for them would install a torture chamber somewhere in the new creation in order to subject those who reject Him to everlasting pain?”
So, what should we think of hell? Is the idea of it really responsible for all the cruelty and torture in the world? Is the doctrine of hell incompatible with the way of Jesus Christ? Hardly. In fact, the most prolific teacher of hell in the Bible is Jesus, and He spoke more about it than He did about heaven. In Matthew 25:41–46 He teaches us four truths about hell that should cause us to grieve over the prospect of anyone experiencing its horrors.
1. Hell is a state of separation from God.
On the day of judgment, Jesus will say to all unbelievers, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire” (v. 41). This is the same sort of language that Jesus uses elsewhere to describe the final judgment of unbelievers (see 7:23).
To be separated from God is to be separated from anything and everything good. That is hard to conceive because even the most miserable person enjoys some of God’s blessings. We breathe His air, are nourished by food that He supplies, and experience many other aspects of His common grace.
On earth even atheists enjoy the benefits of God’s goodness. But in hell, these blessings will be nonexistent. Those consigned there will remember God’s goodness, and will even have some awareness of the unending pleasures of heaven, but they will have no access to them.
This does not mean that God will be completely absent from hell. He is and will remain omnipresent (Ps. 139:7-8). To be separated from the Lord and cast into hell does not mean that a person will finally be free of God. That person will remain eternally accountable to Him. He will remain Lord over the person’s existence. But in hell, a person will be forever separated from God in His kindness, mercy, grace, and goodness. He will be consigned to deal with Him in His holy wrath.
2. Hell is a state of association.
Jesus says that the eternal fire of hell was “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). People were made for God. Hell was made for the Devil. Yet people who die in their sin, without Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, will spend eternity in hell with the one being who is most unlike God. It is a tragic irony that many who do not believe in the Devil in this life will wind up spending eternity being tormented with him in hell.
3. Hell is a state of punishment.
Jesus describes it as “fire” (v. 41) and a place of “punishment” (v. 46). Hell is a place of retribution where justice is served through the payment for crimes.
The punishment must fit the crime. The misery and torment of hell point to the wickedness and seriousness of sin. Those who protest the biblical doctrine of hell as being excessive betray their inadequate comprehension of the sinfulness of sin. For sinners to be consigned to anything less than the horrors of eternal punishment would be a miscarriage of justice.
4. Hell is an everlasting state.
Though some would like to shorten the duration of this state, Jesus’ words are very clear. He uses the same adjective to describe both punishment and life in verse 46. If hell is not eternal, neither is the new heaven and earth.
How can God exact infinite punishment for a finite sin? First, because the person against whom all sin is committed is infinite. Crimes against the infinitely holy, infinitely kind, infinitely good, and infinitely supreme Ruler of the world deserve unending punishment. In addition to that, those condemned to hell will go on sinning for eternity. There is no repentance in hell. So the punishment will continue as long as the sinning does.
The dreadfulness of hell deepens our grateful praise for the salvation we have in Jesus Christ. Hell is what we deserve. And hell is what He experienced on the cross in our place.
Believing the truth about hell also motivates us to persuade people to be reconciled to God. By God’s grace those of us who are trusting Christ have been rescued from this horrible destiny. How can we love people and refuse to speak plainly to them about the realities of eternal damnation and God’s gracious provision of salvation?
Clearer visions of hell will give us greater love for both God and people.
This post was originally published in Tabletalk magazine.
[[while you have zero examples for your science fiction.]]
Nope- we have one example- the parable of the rich man- setting a precedent
[[Are you blind or obtuse? “The text says The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which a man took, and sowed in his field. Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs.” (Mt. 13:31,32)]]
Are you incapable of making a comment without making an arrogant insult to go along with it? I see nothing in that verse that states the parable was talking only about the mustard seed being the smallest of ONLY those seeds which are planted
[[And it is likely some did not know that there were smaller seeds,]]
It doesn’t matter what they knew or didn’t know- God knew- and stated something that wasn’t true for the purposes of illustration
[[I am slow to wrath, but]]
But quick to arrogant insults-
[[The point, as said, was that physical laws simply do not apply in the spiritual realm.]]
Mmmm sure they don’t- this is why bodies in hell WILL experience the physical law of pain
[[What you think I have been doing, despite your complaints, and your continued attempts to defend the indefensible premise of the Lord teaching science fiction, which lead to claiming He taught error in science, warrant such reproof. ]]
I see, and you will no doubt be writing to all the major bible commentators, all the scholars, and all the scholars and theologians and kinfolks to chastise htem as well huh?
Look- these are not my thoughts- This issue has been debated for centuries- and NEITHER side has come to a 100% definitive conclusion- IF you are going to call me blasphemous- then you by extension are calling the bible’s most brilliant mindfs on the issue blasphemous as well-
The fact is that there is very strong evidence that this parable did infact turn a known, much used myth around on the Pharisees- to show that their ‘God blesses the rich, therefore anyone who is rich is favored of God’ False ideology was nothing but a lie-
I’ve asked you to provide some evidence that the souls in hell can talk to those in heaven, I’ve asked you to explain how a soul could thirst- I’ll ask how a person in such torment could only ask for a drop of water which would no NOTHING- I’ll ask
This parable is meant only to show that we all get what we earn in life=- nothing more nothing less- one isn’t made more worthy by their deeds than any other=- something the Pharisees were falsely teaching
Many many great biblical scholars do not believe this parable is a literal event- The MYTH of purgatory and paradise was adopted from pagan religions by the Jews long before Christ came on the scene- What the Pharisees was teaching was myth- there is nothing in God’s word which indicates man can cross over from sheol, that man can communicate with those in heaven when he is in sheol- or that a soul can be prayed out of sheol as the MYTH stated-
There is no truth to the pagan myth that a person can find it in their heart to be sorry for what they did, and to thusly be prayed out of purgatory- which you seem to suggest they can- claiming as you did that the Holy Spirit will be able to convict souls in hell apparently- The idea that this could happen is a purely pagan myth- used by the greeks, espoused by no less than plato himself-
Even I n Egyptian times they were teaching this myth- and the Jews no doubt were subject to these myths when captives of these godless people
The whole system of purgatory and paradise was invented by Babylonians- as a means of pilfering money and goods from those who grieve for their lost ones- giving htem false hope that they could pray their loved ones out of hell, and as a means of mental abuse by requiring those who are grieving lost ones to perform arduous rituals and ceremonies-
The whole concept of ‘soul sleep’ and purgatory was for the living to ‘improve the condition of those lost souls or loved ones-
You asked why Jesus would use soemthign not true to illustrate a point, indicating that the hearers might not understand the trut, yet this parable is spoken to the Pharisees, whom Jesus would not reveal truth to- and why shouldn’t he use their own myth against them? Those who know the truth know the moral of the story and can plainly see them oral is as has already been described- Rich doesn’t mean favored of God- Poor doesn’t mean despised of God (both of which the Pharisees taught), Gentiles were a part of Heaven- (Something that was appalling to the Pharisees, and something they would not accept), and many other Jewish centric symbolisms all throughout the parable made it very clear to Jews who were saved that the moral of the story is that God looks at the heart, not the acts or conditions- and that following the law is worthless- Period-
“Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” (Luke 8:10).
Also- IF this parable is to be taken literally, then what Abraham said is NOT biblical- He told the rich man he was I n hell because He was rich, and the poor man was In heaven because he was poor. Is that how people were saved In the old testament? By giving away everything and dying a miserable death? Is that how people In the old testament went to hell by being rich? If course not, yet here we have something that is not true being stated in the parable. Abraham I n the parable, and Christ in telling the parable, did NOT point out any reason other than being rich for why the man was In hell, not any reason other than being poor that lazarus was In heaven- Since you are so concerned about people possibly ‘getting the wrong impression’ and state that ‘Jesus should have corrected something if it were not true’ then what you claim should apply to this as well because ‘it could’ leave some thinking that being rich means hell, poor means heaven- Christ did nothing to correct that because this parable is NOT about anything other than making the point that status has nothing to do with ones final resting place- As the Pharisees Falsely taught
[[That is easy, and you should know it. “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)]]
I said DESCENDING into paradise- The thief on the cross asked to be with Christ in His KINGDOM- and Christ didn’t correct the man and told him that he would be- Paradise is simply a term for heaven- There are no scriptures except for the parable which uses a myth, that describe paradise as a holdover state of existence for departed souls
[[That is easy, and you should know it. “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)]]
Yep- and paul was caught up into paradise too where He heard words that were unlawful to repeat- and who could speak such words? God alone- Paradise is at the seat of God
We know that the tree of life is where? Yep I nthe garden, and where is the garden? Yep in heaven, in God’s presence- not in some holdover place -some mythical ‘bosom of Abraham’
“a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life. . . .”
[[Blasphemy repeated! You have God teaching scientific error, which no parable does or can,]]
Enough with the ‘blasphemy’ nonsense—
The Holy Inspired word Of God tells a tale of trees talking- wondering among themselves, appointing a king to themselves- You have stated several times Christ would never use something that wasn’t ‘real, or was fictitious’ Yet here we see God doing this very thing, through His servant Jotham, in a parable, in order to drive home a point
Judges 9:7-15 New International Version (NIV)
7 When Jotham was told about this, he climbed up on the top of Mount Gerizim and shouted to them, “Listen to me, citizens of Shechem, so that God may listen to you. 8 One day the trees went out to anoint a king for themselves. They said to the olive tree, ‘Be our king.’
9 “But the olive tree answered, ‘Should I give up my oil, by which both gods and humans are honored, to hold sway over the trees?’
10 “Next, the trees said to the fig tree, ‘Come and be our king.’
11 “But the fig tree replied, ‘Should I give up my fruit, so good and sweet, to hold sway over the trees?’
12 “Then the trees said to the vine, ‘Come and be our king.’
13 “But the vine answered, ‘Should I give up my wine, which cheers both gods and humans, to hold sway over the trees?’
14 “Finally all the trees said to the thornbush, ‘Come and be our king.’
15 “The thornbush said to the trees, ‘If you really want to anoint me king over you, come and take refuge in my shade; but if not, then let fire come out of the thornbush and consume the cedars of Lebanon!’
[[you and your cult]]
Which cult exactly is it that you are referring to? Because the points I’ve brought up about the parable are stated by a great many scholars, commentators, and theologians- some from different denominations, most of which I cite from are either Baptist, or evangelicals- which group are you accusing of being a cult exactly? Because they all mention the things I’ve posted- And while I believe their explanations, I am simply relaying what they have said- poorly at times, but the basic premise beign that Christ told this parable as a non literal parable in order to drive home a point or points-
Your objections duly noted. I leave it to the reader to make up their own minds. I have seen the great length of these posts back and forth and from their nature determined I will make little difference in the outcome. As I have so much else to do where I can and must make a difference, that is where I will put my effort.
Peace,
SR
The bible does; however; illustrate that USE of a lie to further GOD's plan.
Joshua chapter 2
and...
Hebrews 13:11
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Stay tuned for...
4 Assumptions About Heck
This is so much more insidious than merely questioning the parameters of metaphor and similes Jesus used. Read all the posts this one has placed in just this thread, and you will have a fuller picture of a legalist, not a faither.
I said DESCENDING into paradise- The thief on the cross asked to be with Christ in His KINGDOM- and Christ didn’t correct the man and told him that he would be- Paradise is simply a term for heaven-
Wrong, as the Lord said "To day," and He did not go to Heaven that day, but (
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:9-10)
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20)
OT saints were forgiven under the rubric of the atonement of Christ so that they were not damned for their sins, but Hebrews makes it clear that the actual putting away of sins and the opening up of Heaven to enter into the presence of the Lord awaited the atonement of Christ.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (Matthew 27:50-51)
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matthew 27:52-53)
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (Hebrews 9:8)
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Hebrews 9:26)
Enoch, Elijah and Moses bodily went up to Heaven, yet they could not enter the second tabernacle, into the holiest of all, and Lk. 16 reveals where all OT saints would be. It is not even necessary to assign Hades to a place one "descends" into.
This is simply more ignorance, for as even a novice should know, such is using figurative poetic language, such as describes God as having feathers. (Ps. 91:4) and the trees clapping their hands. (Is. 55:12) Which is never the case with persons, places and physical things used to represent spiritual realities in stories of the Lord describing activities that people did and places they were in and experienced. None of the things used were fictional, even though not named, though the stories using them were.
From the silver coin to the two houses to the children in the marketplace to the Fig Tree, in every parable the Lord used physical things that existed in illustrating spiritual realities. Go search them.
You have stated several times Christ would never use something that wasn’t ‘real, or was fictitious’
In correct, rather as expressed, the Lord used physical things that really existed in fictitious stories. What the real things did were made up, as unlike in a fable about things as that of Jotham, in all the parables proper of the Lord (not simply using figurative language), what He described people doing were actual things that people can do and experience.
“Listen to me, citizens of Shechem, so that God may listen to you. 8 One day the trees went out to anoint a king for themselves. They said to the olive tree, ‘Be our king.’
Which only confirms what i said and refutes you, for it was an olive tree, not some unknown place or thing. The difference is that instead of using the kind of entities and places and experiences that exist which are analogous to their spiritual counterpart, the fable of Jotham describes trees doing things they obviously do not, which is more like Aesop's fables .
As this source on different literary genres wisely discerns,
A fable is a whimsical imaginary story of events impossible in nature but through which a moral or ethical message is delivered. While the parable is taken from real life possibilities, in a fable, trees can talk or horses can fly.
You want to claim an exception for Lk. 16:19ff which reduces it the level of a talking truck, but due to your ignorance or desperation you continue to be exposed as a sophist.
Indeed, akin to the dime being the smallest of coins in my analogy. But such must be utterly dismissed as not making any sense by those who have not the sense to see the Lord warning lost souls of the torment that awaits them at death, by describing one who did.
Instead, it must be relegated to being in a class like talking trees from another planet.
Enough said.
I feel the same, but it is hard to keep silence in the light of attempted defense of absurdities.
The cult that denies that the lost are not in the torment of Hell fire, and have Christ teaching scientific error.
After hours if refutation i am done with your desperate obstinate attempts to relegate Lk. 16 to being a fable on the order of talking trees (which at least exist on earth, unlike in your denial of souls in Hell), and having Christ teach science fiction and scientific error. Such is closer to what is seen in cults then in NT Christianity. May God help you see your error before it gets worse.
In multiple responses to multiple attempts by you to defend error your sophistry has been exposed , by the grace of God, and further attempts of yours are fit to be ignored. Bye
When you ask a stupid question, even bothering to bold the type, you would do well to know more about the subject you are presuming to address. I have offered a generic OPINION, over which you presume to insult me as if I would assume God's authority to be my purview. Stuff it in your holier--than-thou gunny sack and tote it off with you. I have written a warning to the poster, in a generic sense which you mischaracterize for your own private agenda. Bye bye
I think we’re on the same team; just fussing over running more plays or passing for more.
Agree, Brother. I’m at half-time ...
[[In correct, rather as expressed, the Lord used physical things that really existed in fictitious stories. ]]
Let’s sum up the context of this ‘discussion’ so far
You claim Jesus would not use anything ‘unreal’ or ‘ficticious’ or Sci-Fi in his parables.
Because Jesus never used anything but ‘real subjects’ before, He is banned from ever doing so because ‘Jesus would not lie’
Anyone that doesn’t believe the dead can speak to the dead across a great divide, is an occultist
Anyone that doesn’t believe people in hell can feel sorry for their sins has horns and tail and carries a pitchfork
Anyone that doesn’t believe the Holy Spirit will not be present in hell is the son of the Devil.
Anyone that claims that Jesus was using a MYTH to turn it around on those who taught this MYTH is a business partner of Beelzebub
Let’s take just your first objection- That
yet what is fiction? Yup- something that isn’t real- A great deal of his parables deal with things that are NOT real- regardless of whether the subject of comparison is real or not- Jesus is not LITERALLY the bread we take in , nor the wine we consume, nor is He a fig tree or vine- it is FICTION to claim such yet- for the purposes of parables, fiction IS allowed and does NOT make one a liar- no more so that saying ‘the sun rose today’ makes one a liar
You can explain until you are blue In the face- but it does NOT matter if Jesus uses something real in nature to tell a parable or something that isn’t real - BOTH metaphors are FICTION- Man is NOT a branch- period- there is no getting around this fact-
[[ Go search them. ]]
I know the parables- each one talks about FICTION- It makes not one whit of difference whether it’s ‘just a little bit ficticious,’ or a lot-
[[This is simply more ignorance, for as even a novice should know, such is using figurative poetic language, such as describes God as having feathers. (Ps. 91:4) and the trees clapping their hands. (Is. 55:12) Which is never the case with persons, places and physical things used to represent spiritual realities in stories of the Lord describing activities that people did and places they were in and experienced. None of the things used were fictional, even though not named, though the stories using them were.]]
Lol- so it’s ok to tell a fictional story as long as the metaphors in the parable are ‘real’ (Because well all know trees often have long conversations when no one is looking)
[[Which only confirms what i said and refutes you, for it was an olive tree, not some unknown place or thing.]]
Phew! As long as it was a talking olive tree, that’s fine- I thought you were going to say it was a talking Yew tree- and everyone knows that would be pure fiction because Yew trees are mute and can’t speak
[[A fable is a whimsical imaginary story of events impossible in nature but through which a moral or ethical message is delivered. ]]
PHEW AGAIN! As long as it’s ‘whimsical’ that makes it not untrue- Gald we’ve cleared that up
[[The cult that denies that the lost are not in the torment of Hell fire, and have Christ teaching scientific error.]]
As opposed to the group that believes that unsaved people in sheol can speak across the great divide and can be sorry for their sins, and can ask for water for their ‘soul lips, soul tongue, and can ask a soul to dip their soul finger in water to bring them a drop (Because ‘anything is possible’ yet it’s not possible God or Jesus would use scientific error to tell a parable...except that they did- in many of their parables)
I see- All clear now
[[unlike in your denial of souls in Hell]]
I would appreciate it IF you would at least speak the truth about what I say or don’t say- I have NEVER ONCE said souls will not go to hell- NOT ONCE
[[as a metaphor which is analogous to another reality.]]
Did you just say metaphors are based solely on ‘another reality”? Are you suggesting metaphors are never based on sci fi or myth? Really?
[[which is to be consistent with what He always did do.]]
Hmmm, Christ did MANY firsts- but apparently the First parable using a MYTH that the Pharisees taught in an effort to show them their MYTH was false, isn’t allow- I see.
Thanks!
[[further attempts of yours are fit to be ignored. Bye]]
[[due to your ignorance
Blasphemy repeated!
according to you and your cult
Are you blind or obtuse?
then I will consider you further deceived.
The more you try to defend cultic doctrine
You are making the classic cultist mistake
desperate and absurd you are
In our next episode Bob434 will have the Lord channeling Vedic mythology as representing Biblical reality.
Of course we must believe the gospel according to Bob434
What a disgusting twisted mind your religion has left you with.
Talk about compelled absurdity!
Ignorance, carelessness or desperation.
It is not surprising that you invoke a cult.
This exchange is best to be over. May God have mercy on you.
What a rebel!
Are you for real?
Now you are really being unreason-able or stubborn.
Blasphemy
according to you and your cult]]
Gee- sorry to see you go- Bye- Before you go though- please explain to what degree ‘fiction’ is ‘allowed’ in parables, and what degree it isn’t allowed- What is the scale of ‘realness’ needed metaphors?- You put in qualifier that it has to be ‘scientifically correct’ or rather ‘not scientific error’ (apparently meaning that in order for a metaphor to be ‘valid’ (according to Daniel) it can’t include scientifically incorrect elements or acts, or mythology- Yet we see mythology used in metaphors all the time- and NOONE thinks people using such metaphors are lying- “Midas touch” “Achilles Heel” “Pandora’s Box” etc-
None of this fits with “Jesus couldn’t use myth in a parable to point out the error taught by Pharisees’ Because “He never did before” and “He would never use something that used elements, acts or objects that weren’t literally true’
Yeah ok- We’ve shown Him/God doing just that- You deny it uses, in your words, ‘scientific error’ because to cede that it DOES use ‘scientific error means that it conflicts with your claim-
[[due to your ignorance or desperation you continue to be exposed as a sophist.]]
“Philosophy BAD- Dogma Good!”
Ok- whatever- have a nice day
I knopw you’ve left the thread, but let’s clear this up once and for all
[[The cult that denies that the lost are not in the torment of Hell fire, and have Christ teaching scientific error.]]
Never once have I said the dead aren’t in hell - You have either intentionally misrepresented what I’ve said, or you have misread my points-
And we’ve established that ‘scientific correctness’ is NOT a prerequisite for parables-
[[to being a fable on the order of talking trees]]
Sorry, it wasn’t just a cute folksy fable told to kids- it was a parable with a life lesson for the people- But whatever- relabel it if you need to in order to defend your claim parables did not contain scientific error- whatever
Have you posted at FR under another name in the past? Your methodology is familiar ...
Arrogance ... insinuating that God would teach using ‘scientific error’; you tell us God would deceive to teach. Now where have we seen that blasphemy before? ... Oh yeah, way back in Eden! ‘You will not surely die’ Yes, satan used the same methodology to twist Eve into disobeying God, by implying God was not being truthful with her. ... And you seemed like such a nice poster ...
Are those assumptions only for people who don't believe in Gosh?
:-)
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