Russia and the West have Swapped Spiritual and Cultural Roles

Russia Insider ^ | September 7, 2015 | Iben Thranolm

[elhombrelibre]

Well said. Putin’s militarism is not what the Gospels teach us about Jesus Christ. The fact that Putin wants to use Christianity to be the new ethos of his empire no more makes him a Christian than the occasional use of capitalism to benefit himself and his cronies makes him a believer in property rights and the rule of law.

[elhombrelibre]

This is another good point. If you like Putin, you should love Obama. Both men want America to retreat from the world, to allow malignant forces to rise up, and to see America’s enemies strengthened. The opposite of Obama is not Putin. They’re on the same path.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for your note of agreement. I agree with your comments as well.

[ETL]

I am anti-Putin...He’s feigning Christianity and is a phony seeking to destroy NATO and restore Russia to its previous role as the primary threat to human liberty in the world.
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"the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the [20th] century" -Russian leader Vladimir Putin on the collapse of the Soviet Union...
"World democratic opinion has yet to realize the alarming implications of President Vladimir Putin's State of the Union speech on April 25, 2005, in which he said that the collapse of the Soviet Union represented the 'greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.'..."

"The more I see and read about Mr. Putin, in power since 1999, and his 'managed democracy,' the more apprehensive I become about the future of Russia and the safety of its neighbors.

If Putin believes that the dissolution of the Soviet Union into 15 independent states represents the 'greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,' then it follows that Putin might well believe he should do something to repair the loss..."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090415000000*/http://www.hooverdigest.org/053/beichman.html
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“The demise of the Soviet Union was the 'greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century',” Putin said in 2005.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/11102.30640.0.0/asia/moscow-puts-the-soviet-squeeze-on-neighbor-nations
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"Putin said Stalin deserves statues in his honor "

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131219/185734707/Putin-Says-Stalin-No-Worse-Than-Cunning-Oliver-Cromwell.html
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"'The Black Book of Communism,'; a scholarly accounting of communism’s crimes, counts about 94 million murdered by the supposed champions of the common man (20 million for the Soviets alone), and some say that number is too low."

Forgetting the Evils of Communism: The amnesia bites a little deeper
By Jonah Goldberg, August 2008:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100711090651/http://article.nationalreview.com/365528/forgetting-the-evils-of-communism/jonah-goldberg

[ETL]

List of statues of Stalin in Russia:

Many at Fallen Monument Park, Moscow, Russia[16]

Bust at his tomb in the Kremlin Wall Necropolis, Moscow, Russia[17]

Statue of Stalin along with Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill at the All-Russia Exhibition Center, Moscow, Russia[18]

A large Stalin statue stood at the All-Russia Exhibition Center until 1948.[19]

A bust stands at the Memorial of Glory in Vladikavkaz.[20]

A bust stands at School No. 2 in Ardon, North Ossetia.[21]

In Bryansk, there is a bust of Stalin in the Communist Party’s regional headquarters.[22]

A bust of Stalin is in Kizel.

A statue is in Nogir, North Ossetia–Alania.[23]

A statue of Stalin is in the yard of School No.2, Ardon, North Ossetia–Alania.[24]

A bust of Stalin in the village of Chokh, Dagestan

A bust of Stalin at a square in Derbent, Dagestan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#Russia

[Krosan]

Here are few pictures showing their "Christians". It is just Russian insanity strengthening their us vs. them propaganda. Nothing Christian about it.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

That Marvel character even used the word “Ukie,” which no normal person even uses in the West.

[ETL]

Thank you, Comrade...

Your check is on the way!

[Agog]

I’ve added both to my FR Putinistas ping list. Hope it’s ok with them? :)

Works for me (definitely not a Putinista)

[dangus]

Right. Because when we want to know which side consists of closet Bolsheviks trying to subvert Christianity, we can always trust the New York Times.

[dangus]

Right. Because when we want to know which side consists of closet Bolsheviks trying to subvert Christianity, we can always trust the New York Times.

[dangus]

Russia’s population has resumed growth; ‘Expansionist’ China has a birth rate that is three times further below replacement levels than Russia’s.

[dangus]

1. The need for weekly church attendance is a doctrine which developed in the West after the great schism.

2. That bizarre synthesis you post is a creation from the KGB priests of the Stalinist era, posted on Stalin’s Moustache, published by Roland Boerr, a WESTERN Neo-stalinist.

3. A Paleo-stalinist is posed to win the nomination of the “ruling party” of the US.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

1. The need for weekly church attendance is a doctrine which developed in the West after the great schism.

So with the Russkie Orthodox, it's okay to not go to church at all? That's so stupid I don't know what to say.

2. That bizarre synthesis you post is a creation from the KGB priests of the Stalinist era, posted on Stalin’s Moustache, published by Roland Boerr, a WESTERN Neo-stalinist.

These icons are common in Russia, as seen in the other posts on this thread, and were even more common in East Ukraine among Russian "separatists."

[dangus]

>> >> 1. The need for weekly church attendance is a doctrine which developed in the West after the great schism. << <<

>> So with the Russkie Orthodox, it’s okay to not go to church at all? That’s so stupid I don’t know what to say. <<

Complete non sequitur. You cited WEEKLY church attendance. They don’t believe they must go to church WEEKLY. They do believe they must go to church OCCASIONALLY... and most DO!

>> These icons are common in Russia, as seen in the other posts on this thread, and were even more common in East Ukraine among Russian “separatists.” <<

Says you. I’m going to guess that Russians are more likely to know that Stalin was anti-Christian than you are to accurately assess how common such iconography is in Russia.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Complete non sequitur.

Try reading what I wrote before posting nonsense:

"Total bullshit. Russia has plenty of "Orthodox" Christians, but only 7 percent even attend church just once a month."

That is what you were responding to. It follows, therefore, that the fact that the majority do not attend church even just once a month or at all is perfectly acceptable.

Compare to the Orthodox in the United States, who complain that "only 26% of all Orthodox Church adherents in America participate in the church life on a regular weekly basis," and consider this a measure of church commitment and involvement in the life of the church:

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/EightFactsAboutChurchAttendance.pdf

So, in other words, the life in the Orthodox church, though complained of by the author of this study, is actually more healthy in the United States than in Russia!

Says you.

Says anybody who knows what they're talking about and don't ignore images of Russian priests blessing images of Joseph Stalin like in one of the posts in this thread!

I’m going to guess that Russians are more likely to know that Stalin was anti-Christian

I have seen documentaries on Russian websites detailing how Joseph Stalin was in fact an Orthodox Hero of the nation who converted late in life and killed Jews and other nefarious "5th columnists"! IOW, they depict Stalin and his repression as patriotic and religious.

[dangus]

>> Try reading what I wrote before posting nonsense: “Total bullshit. Russia has plenty of “Orthodox” Christians, but only 7 percent even attend church just once a month.” That is what you were responding to. It follows, therefore, that the fact that the majority do not attend church even just once a month or at all is perfectly acceptable. <<

Oh, my bad. I hadn’t noticed you had turned a real statistic into a complete BS statistic. Hey, if you want to know a real statistic about the Christianization of Russia, just consider that the abortion rate is down 87%, the birth rate is up 40%, the illegitimacy rate is down 40%, and deaths due to alcoholism are down 75%. So while te Russians are professing their faith in Christ AND leading far more moral lives, you’re judging them on church attendance. Interesting.

>> Says anybody who knows what they’re talking about and don’t ignore images of Russian priests blessing images of Joseph Stalin like in one of the posts in this thread! <<

Riiiight. Because you can accurately assess the moral beliefs of a nation based on the cherry-picked pictures on the internet. By that standard, Westboro Baptist Church could be made to look like what American Christianity is all about.

>> I have seen documentaries on Russian websites detailing how Joseph Stalin was in fact an Orthodox Hero of the nation who converted late in life and killed Jews and other nefarious “5th columnists”! IOW, they depict Stalin and his repression as patriotic and religious. <<

On Russian web sites? So you’re fluent in Russian? Cool! Could you provide me with some links? Or did you watch these with your Canadian girlfriend from summer camp back in High School?

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Oh, my bad. I hadn’t noticed you had turned a real statistic into a complete BS statistic.

I have spoken accurately:

"But for most Russians, the return to religion did not correspond with a return to church. Across all three waves of ISSP data, no more than about one-in-ten Russians said they attend religious services at least once a month. The share of regular attenders (monthly or more often) was 2% in 1991, 9% in 1998 and 7% in 2008. This suggests that although many more Russians now freely identify with the Orthodox Church or other religious groups, they may not be much more religiously observant than they were in the recent past, at least in terms of attendance at religious services."

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

just consider that the abortion rate is down 87%,

These numbers you provide sound made up or perhaps is comparing it to Soviet times which was even more hellish than current standards, thus an 87 percent drop would still leave you in a bad state, like how a 200 percent drop in your stupidity would still leave you screwed if you were still 150% dumb left over. Abortion has indeed dropped in the former Soviet Union, but they still have the highest abortion rate in the world along with a declining population.

In 2009, for example, Russia had 1.3 million abortions. This is in contrast to a population of 149 million.

In the United States, I don't have a number for 2009, but in 2011 we had 1.1 million abortions with a population of 311 million. IOW, Russia has equal to more abortions than we do with a population half our size.

Though even their official numbers-- which are bad-- may be simply wrong:

"Official statistics placed the number of abortions at 1.3 million in 2009, a significant drop from the 1990s. Russia’s increasingly vocal anti-abortion activists, some in Parliament, say it is perhaps many times higher"

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/world/europe/15iht-russia15.html?_r=0

The other source I used:

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2014/02/03/

I'll also add that a drop in the abortion rate doesn't correlate with greater religious belief-- as, obviously, that is disproved by extremely low religious observance in Russia. Russia offers many benefits for having children, so there is a monetary reward here. Also, with their population dropping, with less children even being born, you naturally have a smaller amount of abortion. If China's population level was to plummet and the birthrate was to decrease, that atheist regime would probably have a plummet in the abortion rate as well.

Interestingly, in Russia HIV has skyrocketed:

"While HIV infections globally have declined, rates remain high in Russia. Ten years ago, 170,000 people in the Russian Federation had human immunodeficiency virus. The estimated number now is 1.2 million and the state accounts for over 55% of all new HIV infections reported in the European region. Russia is home to one of the fastest-growing HIV and AIDS epidemics in the world"

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-are-hiv-rates-so-high-russia-1465212

I'll also add that poverty and low life expectancy in Russia are also very bad, and that corruption is rampant and the norm, so much so that large numbers of normal Russians even get their driver's license via bribes. Russia is basically not too far removed from an African country, and are probably only avoiding collapse because of natural resources.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3236334/posts

Riiiight. Because you can accurately assess the moral beliefs of a nation based on the cherry-picked pictures on the internet.

If you see them everywhere you tend to get the impression that the are everywhere. I'll also add that Russians themselves note the confluence between Orthodoxy and Communism:

“In the first stages of Zyuganov’s creation of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation (not without some participation on my part, as well as Prokhanov…), efforts were made to interpret and conceptually appraise the presence of the national component in the Soviet worldview (National Bolshevism), but this initiative was abandoned by the leadership of the [Communist Party], which had occupied itself with some other matters…. However, on the level of rhetoric and first reactions, Russian Communists in all senses present themselves as confirmed national conservatives – sometimes even as ‘Orthodox Monarchists.’” - Alexander Dugin, The Fourth Political Theory

And another good link on the topic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1987754/posts

[dangus]

When the whole point of an article is IMPROVEMENT, citing pathetically old stats (2008?) is pointless.

FTR, yes, I was comparing the improvement to the Soviet era. But the data has improved 30% even since 2008. So the Russian abortion rate is now lower now than the US abortion rate was during the Reagan era. Does the abortion rate alone indicate *religiosity*? No, but it is one measure of *morality.* And I presented it among a host of other measures of morality. Now, when a nation’s people CLAIM to be religious, and their morality leaps, isn’t it reasonable to suppose that they ARE religious?

Oh, and don’t even go to Guttmacher, Planned Parenthood’s research arm. They insist that Latin Americans are having abortions like crazy, but when Mexico City legalized abortion, no-one came.

However, I did learn some fascinating stuff when I was researching this hagiography of Stalin.

Apparently, the notion that he was some sort of late-in-life convert is ridiculous, but apparently Hitler made Stalin realize that a state-controlled religion was preferable to absolute repression of religion.

See, the repression of religion in the Soviet era was so severe, that I had the impression it was constant and unrelenting. Under Lenin and the early years of Stalin, the number of serving pastors in Russian Orthodoxy dropped from 27,000 to a mere 500, and possibly as few as 50. Priests were murdered, or sent off to concentration camps that the Soviets claimed were insane asylums. Kruschev (beginning in 1957) and Brezhnev (in the 1970s) unleashed further waves of terror against religion.

But WWIII changed Stalin’s attitude towards the Russian Orthodox church significantly. Beginning in 1943, he reversed the state destruction of religion, and the number of serving pastors in Russian grew from a mere 500 to more than 22,000.

These new priests were formed in Soviet ideology, recruited and consecrated by Soviet agents, and they formed a new civic religion of sorts. So the authenticity of their own Christianity is extremely questionable. But it does explain the existence of 1940’s-era hagiography of Stalin... and the availability of the sort of images used by FReepers to discredit the religion of Russia, today.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

FTR, yes, I was comparing the improvement to the Soviet era. But the data has improved 30% even since 2008.

I think you are inventing numbers. I can't find any data that is different. This article is dated 2012, and lists the 7 percent number for the "at least once a month":

"7% of the respondents go to religious buildings at least once a month, 30% go to religious buildings from time to time, and 34% go to religious buildings rarely."

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9101

So the Russian abortion rate is now lower now than the US abortion rate was during the Reagan era.

So I looked at the numbers and it was 1.5 million abortions with a population of 250 million, so actually still better than Russia, though a lot worse than today. That must mean that the United States has become much more religious and pious.

Now, when a nation’s people CLAIM to be religious, and their morality leaps, isn’t it reasonable to suppose that they ARE religious?

Well no, just calling yourself religious is easy. Lots of Catholics do that. What is the result? Those who go to church frequently tend to vote conservative. Those who do not tend to vote for abortion and all sorts of havoc. Church attendance does indicate seriousness of commitment.

By the way, you're talking about Russians who are part of a religion where the Patriarch, a former KGB agent, apparently wears 5,000 dollar watches which he incompetently airbrushes from press photos.

So the authenticity of their own Christianity is extremely questionable.

Yup!

But it does explain the existence of 1940’s-era hagiography of Stalin... and the availability of the sort of images used by FReepers to discredit the religion of Russia, today.

Uhhuh

You didn't read the links I provided either. Your loss.