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Crashed MH17 flight 'was 300 miles off typical course'
The London Telegraph ^ | July 18, 2014 | Tom Brooks-Pollock and Edward Malnick

Posted on 07/20/2014 6:23:56 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

MH17 flight feared to have been shot down over Ukraine was taking a significantly different route to the usual course for flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, according to aviation expert.

The crashed MH17 flight took a route 300 miles to the north of its usual path, an aviation expert has said.

Robert Mark, a commercial pilot who edits Aviation International News Safety magazine, said that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur normally travelled along a route significantly further south than the plane which crashed.

Malaysia Airlines has insisted its plane travelled on an "approved route" used by many other carriers.

But Mr Mark said: "I can only tell you as a commercial pilot myself that if we had been routed that way, with what's been going on in the Ukraine and the Russian border over the last few weeks and months, I would never have accepted that route....

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Russia
KEYWORDS: haj; mh17; mh17pilot; offcourse; planeshootdown; russia; shootdown; ukraine; ukrainecrisis
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1 posted on 07/20/2014 6:23:56 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

it’s definitely a strange story. Very fishy


2 posted on 07/20/2014 6:25:31 PM PDT by equalator
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
When will they release the pilots religion?

Why did he suddenly feel 'uncomfortable' flying the route that many jets had flown in the previous hours and turn directly into the dangerous part of the no fly zone.

3 posted on 07/20/2014 6:27:51 PM PDT by deadrock (I am someone else.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The routing has been commented on, but only a little. Who sets the route? Air traffic control? Does the pilot have a choice?


4 posted on 07/20/2014 6:27:59 PM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

So it’s THEIR fault?!


5 posted on 07/20/2014 6:28:06 PM PDT by Twotone (Marte Et Clypeo)
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To: equalator

I heard it was off coarse when the story first broke. I immediately wondered about the Malaysian pilot, what with the other plane still missing. I’d sure be checking out all of those Malaysian pilots.


6 posted on 07/20/2014 6:29:59 PM PDT by JudyinCanada
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Something stinks about this. Just like something stuck about the last Malaysian airliner incident.


7 posted on 07/20/2014 6:33:44 PM PDT by dforest
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To: dforest

supposed to be stunk


8 posted on 07/20/2014 6:34:32 PM PDT by dforest
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Paging Lois Lerner’s IT person.


9 posted on 07/20/2014 6:35:34 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Twotone

I don’t think this article is attributing fault . They are talking about the course the airplane was taking.


10 posted on 07/20/2014 6:35:45 PM PDT by dforest
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I think your map there is showing the airspace over Ukraine AFTER the shootdown — not before.


11 posted on 07/20/2014 6:40:57 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: dforest

To the point, they are saying the Flight “crashed”.


12 posted on 07/20/2014 6:44:18 PM PDT by Does so ("Miranda Warnings" and loss of "Common-Law Marriage" = 2 Big Mistakes...)
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To: deadrock

Sorry, but you’re an idiot. Blaming this on the pilots religion is beyond stupid.


13 posted on 07/20/2014 6:45:03 PM PDT by bigdaddy45
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Next month I am scheduled to fly from Zürich to Hong Kong. This article make curious and I went to a site (Flight Aware) that track flights for Swiss International and they have been flying south over the Black Sea for the last couple of weeks.

The Malaysia flight has been flying pretty consistently over the Ukraine, venturing pretty close to where the flight was shot down. Today’s flight went WAY south, skirting northern Turkey.


14 posted on 07/20/2014 6:49:30 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: equalator

Muzzie pilot on a suicide mission, Putin gets the blame? The ‘perfect’ Jihad!


15 posted on 07/20/2014 6:52:39 PM PDT by CivilWarBrewing
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To: bigdaddy45
"Sorry, but you’re an idiot. Blaming this on the pilots religion is beyond stupid."

I hope you were being sarcastic.

16 posted on 07/20/2014 6:54:45 PM PDT by CivilWarBrewing
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To: bigdaddy45

It should be not difficult to get data on previous commercial flight paths Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur. Go back 2 weeks and see if this plane deviated from prior routes.


17 posted on 07/20/2014 6:57:21 PM PDT by Col Frank Slade
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
There was a Singapore Airline only 15 miles from them when shot down, and 58 flights had flown over that same area in the past 24 hours.

A Singapore Airlines passenger plane was flying just 15 miles away when flight MH17 was shot down.

This new data emerged as security experts warned that with thousands of Britons unwittingly flying over the Ukraine each week and one said: ‘It could so easily have been one of ours.’

18 posted on 07/20/2014 6:58:18 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: Uncle Chip; 2ndDivisionVet
I think your map there is showing the airspace over Ukraine AFTER the shootdown — not before.

Yes the way the picture appears in this post is misleading.

It makes it look like the routes pictured are typical past routes. They are not. They are typical current routes since the crash.

19 posted on 07/20/2014 7:06:14 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: bigdaddy45
I am reminded of an article of a famous record reviewer on how he reviews records. He says before he even listens to the album, he gives it a 3 of 5 and moves up and down the scale depending on the music.

Now I bring this up because this how I judge calamities, disasters and violence around the world. I start with the Muslims did it.

You help me with the scale by answering these questions.

As I said: Why did he suddenly feel 'uncomfortable' flying the route that many jets had flown in the previous hours and turn directly into the dangerous part of the no fly zone?

Did he know that his chances of getting fired at was greater turning toward that location?

Did he have an agreement with a Muslim counterpart on the ground?

If you are not interested in the answers to these reasonable questions, perhaps you are worse than an idiot - you are a Islamic terrorist sympathizer.

Of course, it could turn out that the pilot is Hindu and it is all a big coincidence. But unlike you, I like to keep an open mind.

20 posted on 07/20/2014 7:08:37 PM PDT by deadrock (I am someone else.)
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To: CivilWarBrewing
Muzzie pilot on a suicide mission, Putin gets the blame?

Poor Puty getting blamed for his rebels killing 300 people.

Can't the guy catch a break?

21 posted on 07/20/2014 7:08:44 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
NOT to Worry leading brain surgeon... theologian.... and vietnam war vet .......John Jphn Kerry will most certainly get to the bottom of this one too....


22 posted on 07/20/2014 7:15:13 PM PDT by MeshugeMikey ( "Never, never, never give up". Winston Churchill ...)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I had heard on Thursday or Friday that there were storms to the south and planes were being assigned to this more northerly flight path. Has anything new been released on that?
23 posted on 07/20/2014 7:16:49 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (The IRS: either criminally irresponsible in backup procedures or criminally responsible of coverup.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Someone mentioned, I think here at FR, that Malay Air flew over the war zone to save gas. They are in or close to bankruptcy, so chose the shortest route in spite of the dangers. The regular route would have cost them more for fuel.

Lawsuits from MH370 are pushing them toward or HAVE pushed them into bankruptcy. Now they’ll be out of business forever.


24 posted on 07/20/2014 7:19:31 PM PDT by Veto! (OpInions freely dispensed as advice)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Anybody want to buy my two tickets on Malaysia Air?


25 posted on 07/20/2014 7:22:53 PM PDT by morphing libertarian (Advanced technological development.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I have also read reports that the Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) was not functioning.

No IFF + off course would prima facie indicate a hijacking.

After 9/11/01 no responsible government can afford that risk, especially for an aircraft originating from a Muslim nation.

26 posted on 07/20/2014 7:23:54 PM PDT by lightman (O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance, giving to Thy Church vict'ry o'er Her enemies.)
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To: CivilWarBrewing
Muzzie pilot on a suicide mission, Putin gets the blame? The ‘perfect’ Jihad!

Which is twisted into this new century's version of the Lusitania....that's more than a Jihad, that's a world war.

27 posted on 07/20/2014 7:26:00 PM PDT by lightman (O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance, giving to Thy Church vict'ry o'er Her enemies.)
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To: morphing libertarian

Were you headed to a water park or a war reenactment, by any chance?


28 posted on 07/20/2014 7:26:15 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: Veto!
The pilot diverted away and off the 'save gas' flight path into the dangerous part of the no fly zone. He flew further north(300 miles it appears) and thus used more fuel.

Maybe he was 'uncomfortable' saving the company money?

29 posted on 07/20/2014 7:27:14 PM PDT by deadrock (I am someone else.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Bahgdad.

Just worried about unexpected stops.


30 posted on 07/20/2014 7:27:53 PM PDT by morphing libertarian (Advanced technological development.)
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To: deadrock

OoooKay. So this is an extremely weird “veer” into danger.

Another pilot with a death wish? Or?


31 posted on 07/20/2014 7:32:37 PM PDT by Veto! (OpInions freely dispensed as advice)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

This article is rubbish. And so are a great many of the comments. This plane was flying a perfectly ordinary route, and was avoiding the southern route as it WAS covered by a notam cautioning pilots away from the Crimean penninsula as well as the Sea of Azov.


32 posted on 07/20/2014 7:33:10 PM PDT by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: Veto!

See my #3 and #13 posts.


33 posted on 07/20/2014 7:33:59 PM PDT by deadrock (I am someone else.)
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To: deadrock

Crap, nothing more.


34 posted on 07/20/2014 7:34:54 PM PDT by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: John Valentine

Crap, nothing more.


35 posted on 07/20/2014 7:39:03 PM PDT by deadrock (I am someone else.)
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To: KarlInOhio; Nachum; Cindy; G8 Diplomat; AdmSmith; Dog; nuconvert; Straight Vermonter; dervish; ...

Thank you for the post.

There were three approved routes A, B, and C. The “A”, southerly route is the most direct and the most used.

Correct, there were a number of heavy cell thunderstorms covering A and B so they flew the C (most northerly) route that day.

What has not been released is that there had been a total of 12 shootdowns in the previous months, but not above 7,000 feet, so no concern was noted.

However, last Tuesday there was a shootdown at 22,000 feet, indicating a vehicle mounted anti-aircraft system was in play.

There should have been an immediate air traffic advisory that was not done.

BTW, the separatists are known for drinking. Given the sloppy command and control, I would not be surprised if alcohol consumption may have been a factor.

Also, there was apparently no command vehicle that normally carries the aquisition radar for the SA-11 that could IFF the commercial and passenger carrier squak.


36 posted on 07/20/2014 7:46:03 PM PDT by gandalftb (Go Seahawks!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

MH-17 was directly on the great-circle course from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down. Anyone can prove this with a globe and a piece of string. (Hold one end of the string on Amsterdam and the other on Kuala Lumpur, pull it tight, and see where it crosses the Ukraine.)


37 posted on 07/20/2014 7:48:02 PM PDT by zot
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To: Veto!
Someone mentioned, I think here at FR, that Malay Air flew over the war zone to save gas. They are in or close to bankruptcy, so chose the shortest route in spite of the dangers. The regular route would have cost them more for fuel.

This is also the consensus on a respected commercial pilots forum.

38 posted on 07/20/2014 7:48:36 PM PDT by Kennard
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To: morphing libertarian

Is one of them a window seat?


39 posted on 07/20/2014 7:53:03 PM PDT by bray (Palin/Bibi 2016)
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To: KarlInOhio

That’s what I recall as well...they diverted away from the typical flight path to avoid severe storms.


40 posted on 07/20/2014 7:59:58 PM PDT by Fire_on_High (RIP City of Heroes and Paragon Studios, victim of the Obamaconomy.)
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To: dforest
Something stinks about this. Just like something stuck about the last Malaysian airliner incident.

Agreed. Does somebody have it in for the airline, their insurer, or their reinsurer? Maybe some other carrier wants those routes?

41 posted on 07/20/2014 8:02:08 PM PDT by aposiopetic
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To: gandalftb
What has not been released is that there had been a total of 12 shootdowns in the previous months, but not above 7,000 feet, so no concern was noted.

However, last Tuesday there was a shootdown at 22,000 feet, indicating a vehicle mounted anti-aircraft system was in play.

In the words of a commercial pilot on another forum, "elevation is not your friend":

Ranges for MANPADs generally assume the target is high performance aircraft that can maneuver aggressively and deploy countermeasures (chaff, flares, jamming) in response to onboard and remote (e.g. AWACS) tracking, lockon, and/or launch warnings. Indeed, defeating a MANPAD these days is often more about geometry and maneuvers (at 6 to 9Gs) to bleed the missile of its finite supply of kinetic energy, something commercial aircraft are unable to do.

A fighter might be safe from recent versions of Manpads at 20,000, but a commercial airliner might not be 100% safe at 33,000. An SA11 would require well over 50,000 even with counter-measures.

No airline had any business flying over eastern Ukraine, even before the shootdown of the Ukrainian military transport.

42 posted on 07/20/2014 8:05:52 PM PDT by Kennard
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To: CivilWarBrewing

This shootdown had nothing to do with religion — unless you count Putin’s total absence of it.


43 posted on 07/20/2014 8:11:36 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: bray

biz class window and aisle


44 posted on 07/20/2014 8:14:52 PM PDT by morphing libertarian (Advanced technological development.)
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To: bigdaddy45

“Sorry, but you’re an idiot. Blaming this on the pilots religion is beyond stupid.”

I guess there are two idiots here tonight, because in my opinion, it could be a factor. So ask yourself, are you comfortable flying with Muzzies at the controls? I have done my share of international flying and I would not set foot in a plane even owned by a Muzzie country.


45 posted on 07/20/2014 8:28:12 PM PDT by vette6387
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To: Veto!

Total fuel savings for taking the “war zone route?” $1500.


46 posted on 07/20/2014 8:31:40 PM PDT by ExNewsExSpook
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To: morphing libertarian

That’s a killer deal!


47 posted on 07/20/2014 8:38:16 PM PDT by bray (Palin/Bibi 2016)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Ok..this could get very ugly..

Because the flight path over that area could of been directed by Ukraine flight control...

So why directed in to a hot area not on normal flight path?

To try to trigger some incident for political gain?. testing defence?


48 posted on 07/20/2014 8:46:35 PM PDT by tophat9000 (An Eye for an Eye, a Word for a Word...nothing more)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Ok..this could get very ugly..

Because the flight path over that area could of been directed by Ukraine flight control...

So why directed in to a hot area not on normal flight path?

To try to trigger some incident for political gain?. testing defence?


49 posted on 07/20/2014 8:48:07 PM PDT by tophat9000 (An Eye for an Eye, a Word for a Word...nothing more)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

And of course if you listen/watch RT you learn that the tape of the “separatists” bragging about having shot down the plane was doctored according to a specialist they consulted and that the pictures of the launcher from which the shot supposedly came wasn’t taken where it was reported to have been - according to RT the whole tragedy is a Ukraine plot to discredit Russia - strange indeed.....


50 posted on 07/20/2014 9:00:24 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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