Posted on 12/03/2013 8:04:04 AM PST by oxcart
Edited on 12/03/2013 1:16:33 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
^^^ THIS ^^^
George Washington was a traitor, as defined by the British. Think about it.
I see this in very simple terms. I don't want our national security breached, period. I also do not and will not accept some government types collecting data on US citizens in a manner that is outside the Constitution as written. Besides, the whole "it's for national security" argument falls very flat when squared with the refusal to secure our borders.
Then what is your problem? If everything he uncovered was already known, how can you accuse him of being a traitor?
When people like you with these illogical opinions start getting so adamant in favor of the government position, I start to suspect that you have ulterior motives for hanging around FreeRepublic.
You say that he didn't uncover anything that was unknown. I say that I heard things I didn't know, and a LOT of other people learned things that they did not know. If this was not the case no one would be talking about it. Your position also makes no sense regarding foreign governments. How can you explain a foreign government not knowing something that was already known by the general public? You can't, and I suspect it's because you are a troll.
We have been discussing phone records. Not email.
Not sure what you mean by security key for email systems.
Can you provide more info on “One person who was running an email account and refused to hand over the security keys to the NSA had his entire business shut down.”
That’s a rather vague example.
Perhaps you could educate us on the email aspects of this topic.
Only a fool would not be able to understand the difference, and only an enemy agent would support this thing in light of everything else that has come out recently about the government using the IRS to target individuals that disagree with them. The government has proved it cannot be trusted to do the right thing and act within the law. Anyone supporting them in these efforts, are themselves traitors.
Google Lavabit. Or Silent Circle.
You are so informed you should already know this. Perhaps you are a government troll???
“Yeah, like Fast & Furious was addressed. Oh wait..... “
Humorously stated and I share your cynicism.
But it makes no sense to therefore turn over classified national security documents to Marxist Englishmen, Chinese Communists and former KGB.
Unless you think somehow they are your saviors and these hostile foreign entities are going to ride to your rescue.
Weird. Your post 82 is exactly in line with what I have been saying.
I don’t want national security breached period.
Snowden breached it.
I thought you understood this.
Yes. I can see you right now.
.../s
Interesting.
Lava Bit was a co-conspirator with Snowden. They refused a search warrant.
This is not how it was presented on this thread as some random fellow being told to give up all encryption keys to all accounts as SOP.
“Besides, the whole “it’s for national security” argument falls very flat when squared with the refusal to secure our borders.”
That’s the RATs other faux mantra. It goes hand in hand with “it’s for the children.” Your “simple terms” mirror mine.
That would do it. Your subsequent posts were much clearer...
“Data mining of our phone records has been going on for years.”
Yes, but we’re talking about internet data mining, which is certainly a much more potentially invasive thing. Also, the government, to this day, has never admitted that it conducts data mining of domestic phone records, even though numerous sources and media outlets have reported that they do. They never sought authorization from the FISA courts for that program. They’ve never won a single court decision authorizing it, and have instead tried to invoke national security to get any lawsuits quashed.
Considering all that, the fact that they may have done unauthorized phone data mining for years is no kind of argument that the newly revealed internet data mining is lawful.
“Reading mail is not analogous to blind data mining of phone call records. That would be analogous to listening to phone conversations. That would require a warrant.”
Says who? If you can cite a court case that has decided data mining is not a search covered by the fourth amendment, then go right ahead. Otherwise, to quote the Dude: “that’s just, like, your opinion, man”.
“In blind data mining, what is searched or seized that relates to any individual specifically?”
The fact that they aren’t searching specifically is not a defense, it’s an indictment. The only kind of search they can possibly get authorization for is a specific one. Any nonspecific search is automatically unlawful and can’t be authorized by any court, short of a martial law or national emergency type situation.
For example, if they want to search my home, they can get authorization. If they want to just search every home in a particular zip code, there is no way in hell they could obtain a lawful warrant. If they tried a search like that in the real world, we’d all recognize it as the act of a police state. Instead, they just rummage through all of our virtual pockets and we are supposed to pretend that this is okay? I don’t think so!
“What does your contract with the phone provider say? No one is forced to use their service.”
That’s irrelevant. A contract with a private party can’t annul our constitutional protections. Certainly those contracts can protect the company from liability if they comply with an unlawful request from the government, but they can do nothing to make such a request lawful. Also, the very nature of the internet is such that every provider is handling traffic from many users who have not signed any contract with them, and then handing that data over to the government along with the traffic from their own customers.
What was uncovered that was not known?
Not by the general public, no. Nothing will happen to change any of this until people demand it of their congresscritters. Prior to Snowden's data dump, the powers that be could laugh those of us concerned about the ever encroaching survellance state off as a bunch of conspiracy freaks. That's harder to do when the MSM is reporting on it.
Some of the revelations that have come out are new.
As for Al Quada, I couldn't care less how it might or might not help them. There is an old and often quoted saying about trading liberty for the illusion of safety, and what one gets from it that is apt here. Freedom is dearly bought and cheaply traded. Waving a bloody shirt around and claiming that the government has a right ro know anything about us that they care to discover through any means they deem necessary does not enhance our security. I don't see how people can accept the fact that our government doesn't believe we have any right to privacy at all.
Many others apparently agree with me, which is why Snowden is not being as universally villified as some would like.
The fact that they aren’t searching specifically is not a defense, it’s an indictment. The only kind of search they can possibly get authorization for is a specific one. Any nonspecific search is automatically unlawful and can’t be authorized by any court, short of a martial law or national emergency type situation.
For example, if they want to search my home, they can get authorization. If they want to just search every home in a particular zip code, there is no way in hell they could obtain a lawful warrant. If they tried a search like that in the real world, we’d all recognize it as the act of a police state. Instead, they just rummage through all of our virtual pockets and we are supposed to pretend that this is okay? I don’t think so!
Well said. I'm glad so few Freepers have bought into the 'Snowden was a traitor' meme.
We seem to get all the a-holes leaking stuff.
There is nothing 'specious' or demagogic about it. We have in the past months been presented with a host of assertions resulting from the disclosures that the NSA et al have been conducting surveillance on a scale that cannot possibly be 'target specific'.
They, government, are using a massive electronic data collection apparatus, intimidation of communications vendors to supply network data, and application of very sophisticated pattern association algorithms to monitor virtually every citizen in this country - all with wild stretches of the imagination as to reason, context and justification from a rubber stamp court - FISA - I say illegally.
In several instances after these revelations, the government has been forced to admit some truth in parts of most of the assertions. Just a day ago we were treated to the revelation that NSA is tracking over 5 billion cell GPS positions throughout the planet.
NONE of this is 'target specific'. It is fishing with dynamite to see what floats up to the surface.
Nonsense. Snowden's whistle-blowing exposed a wide range of NSA corruption and criminality to the American public.
Your problem is that you don't distinguish between suspicion and proof. People suspected the NSA's criminal and abusive conduct for years, but couldn't definitively make the case until now.
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