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To: HomeAtLast; smvoice; boatbums; metmom; CynicalBear; jodyel; HarleyD; Alex Murphy
"Tell us Kirk, why does God put up with Satan’s existence? Why not put him in time out, alternate universe, or just undo him?"

The answers to these questions may seem weak if you are among those who do not recognize that the Scriptures are the message from God. However, if this underlying assumption can be accepted (the Scriptures are from God), then here is a crack at the very good questions you raise (hopefully, on behalf of Kirk).

The Scriptures provide us only a small peek at the reason for Satan's existence. Actually, one might broaden your inquiry to include, "Why does evil exist, at all?". Really, Satan is just another expression (a subset) of the concept of evil. He is a real being and an embodiment of evil, but still just a part of evil. From the Scriptures we gather that all evil (including Satan) was manufactured by God in order to make some kind of enormous point. That is, there has been an incredibly problematic drama set up to display the difference between God and all "other". The Scriptures call this His "glory".

Prior to the commencement of creation (which includes the beginning of time, the creation of Satan, the creation of heaven, the creation of the universe, etc.) God determined (after the counsel of His will) that He would form a creation in which this gargantuan problem could be solved only by His own death. That is, He would create the problem (rebellion against Himself), and it would be so enormous that only His own death could pay the price He decided to demand. If this seems preposterous, I shared your skepticism for years. But, this is what the Book tells us.

Satan just happens to be a pawn on the "chessboard" of creation, played by the hand of God. Don't misunderstand me here, God says that He has pushed Satan away from Himself in a way that makes Him not guilty of Satan's evil. Nevertheless, Satan is not an "accident", nor a "good thing gone wrong". He is a deliberate portion of the drama unfolding across all of creation. The whole death of Christ is not an "after thought" nor a "plan B". It was the eternal plan. The day will come when God does exactly what you suggest. Actually, all evil will be set aside in an "alternate universe"...something the Scriptures call "hell".

Currently, or shall I say, temporarily, we are seeing the expression of evil (Satan's and man's) play out seemingly uncontrolled. But, it is not uncontrolled, at all. At an appropriate time, all of this will be radically changed. Whether this is on the earth itself, or it occurs in another place, is not absolutely clear (new heaven & earth?).

But, you have happened upon one of the situations that tends to keep folks back from God. And, it is interesting that the Scriptures even describe this experience. To some, He has granted the opportunity to realize what He is doing...He has kept others in the dark. There is, in this sense no such thing as "free will", in that God (according to the Book), has been manipulating all things at all moments. You, me, every FReeper, every spirit, all molecules, all events. Even the death of His Son was the pre-planned moment of Rescue for those whom He has chosen.

I don't necessarily think that this will convince you of anything...it is not intended to. But, if you sense any kind of stirring in your soul that this rather outlandish story may be true, then it is possible the Spirit of God is dragging you into the adopted family. Perhaps you are already there.

But, there is no club to join, there is no organization which is special, there is only His family. If you are brought into His family you will be in "The Body of Christ", as it is called in the Book. Everyone from the beginning of human history (at least Abel and onward) who has been granted this "drawing" (known as "faith") are in the family of Christ.

Of course, this is an abbreviated version of the story found in the Scriptures. Some organizations have tried to make this about them, but it is really about the Triune God and His glory. Let anyone of the folks noted in the "to" section of this post, if you wish to know more.

10 posted on 09/25/2013 9:42:09 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Perhaps this could be approached from a creator’s view.

Lets each personally assume or pretend that we have the ability to create something such as a PC which is operating perfectly but is unable to give us something that we really want from it.

As creators we have the ability to either redesign our creation, modify it or destroy it due to it’s failure to give us what we really want. We created it and therefore we have the right to do with it whatever we want.

Perhaps we realize that our creation can be modified to give us exactly what we want from it but that would require us to give it the gift or ability to exert it’s “free Will” in order for it to choose to have a personal relationship to us.

That free will of necessity would allow our creation to either love us or reject us and love another which is not it’s creator, and that is where the problem comes in.

God created us to love and worship Him, to be a companion to him and not merely programmed robots designed to only do specific chores. It requires that free will to make worship and love “true” and not a programmed response.

It is the ability to choose of our free will that provides that special value to God and He has designed a method through Christ whereby we can be “saved” or “converted” to provide that which He truly desires. He gives to mankind the ability to be redeemed but he doesn’t give that ability to his angels. If they sin in any way and reject God there is no redemption for them but only immediate destruction.

Now for a Personal thought, I believe that God once granted that same free will to his angles allowing them to either accept Him for Who and what He is.

The bible records that one third of the angels followed Lucifer in rebelling against God and therefore were cast down to earth where they were sentenced to eternal separation from God.

God did however succeed in getting two third of the angels to love and obey Him by exercising their free will which He granted them to exercise.

After all, what value is there in a creation which only functions in a mechanical matter as a robot as opposed to a creation with a free will which chooses to love and obey?

The heart of the matter is that God wants a sentient creation which chooses to love, obey, and communion with Him. By communion, I don’t mean a religious rite or ceremony but an actual personal relationship with Him and His Son Jesus. This worship and communion is only of value when it is a result of an individual’s free will decision to do so, it is of NO value when it is obtained by a forced robotic behavior programmed into the individual.

In regards to why some people suffer in this life despite being ‘Christian’ may be simply because as the bible states God is long suffering and not willing for any to perish. We need to keep in mind that this life is temporary at best and no one is guaranteed to live a long and happy life.

Christ Himself stated that the world would hate us because it first hated him.

In conclusion, it is the result of an individual’s free will that so much evil has fallen on the world, it is NOT God who created the evil but evil angels and men which create it. WE must never forget that life was only meant to be temporary and it is eternity WITH God that we should be looking for, not a life of ease and joy here on earth.


14 posted on 09/25/2013 11:00:23 AM PDT by dglang
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To: Dutchboy88; HomeAtLast; smvoice; boatbums; metmom; CynicalBear; jodyel; HarleyD; Alex Murphy

Good points.

If God never provided Adam with a choice, man would never know the depths to which we can sink trading Paradise for a piece of fruit. I suspect the same is true about Satan. The angels would never have thought it would be possible that they would rebel against God without God showing what they were capable of.

We are all fallen creatures without His sustaining grace to draw us to Him and to keep us in His presence.

Why does God allow evil? Only by seeing ourselves as we are will we repent and be drawn to Him.


26 posted on 09/25/2013 6:00:14 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Dutchboy88; HarleyD; okkev68
The day will come when God does exactly what you suggest. Actually, all evil will be set aside in an "alternate universe"...something the Scriptures call "hell".

Sounds like a marvelous place. Will we have free will? Will it be free of charge?

These, like the ones in previous post, are rhetorical questions, it is evidently necessary to stipulate.

29 posted on 09/26/2013 6:13:28 AM PDT by HomeAtLast (The original Tea Party entailed a willingness to do without some tea.)
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