Posted on 09/23/2013 2:38:42 PM PDT by shego
“you’re going to be very, very angry with me”
Nah. It’s like Shabbat dinner talking politics at a Jewish house. High passions are good.
Of course, atheists would want to associate Christian beliefs with Naaaaaaaaaaazis....
And don’t take my word for it, look it up...
I think I owe you an apology.
The 75 is a reference to FDR and his turning away of the St. Louis — filed with 900 or so Jewish refugees -— back to Nazi Germany, among his other lovely acts.
But you are correct, with noted exceptions like General Grants’ Order No. 11 (expelling Jewish US Citizens), the various FDR, Joe Kennedy, probably James Baker, and Pat Buchanon, the USA has been a literal beacon among the nations.
Their agenda is clear, but the website is well-done, well-cited, and just sticks to the facts.
First, I would ask someone who claims to be an heir of the most finely thought out religious ethics on earth, not to commit the gross fallacy of begging the question of “who a Christian is.” You might hate some of the stuff a bunch of people saying they were Christians claimed. That doesn’t make them Christians any more than being in a garage makes you a car.
The Inquisition was terrible and awful, the result of a segment of the church attempting the biblically forbidden. Pastors weren’t ever given to oversee unbelievers. The biblical paradigm for Christians is actually a MORE hands off approach to earthly government than Jews have!
Still, the Inquisition didn’t manage to murder even close to as many people in several centuries as a single Stalinist purge (and boy did they hate Jews too) did... if a sane person was forced to pick which of the two would be in charge, I think he’d pick the Inquisition people. But biblical Christians are not even Inquisition people.
The positive fruits of biblically faithful (more or less, and it did not need to be full blown evangelical faith as we know it today) Christianity WERE manifest through the centuries, but it simply got ignored by Jewish sages who would not listen, no way, no how, to a bunch of “uppity gentiles.”
And ultimately, I would ask you not to diss God. Because when Christians did do good things, it was God’s work. If Buddhists helped Jews, surely you wouldn’t snub the Almighty for the help even if sometimes disobedient people calling themselves Buddhists also harmed Jews. Well the same goes for Christians. By distorting the record to highlight the griefs and to completely disregard the helps (Christianity even when exercised in a warped way helped civilize the diaspora environment, making it POSSIBLE for Jews to carry on “alone”) is to snub the Almighty.
To make it a trilogy... Jews themselves need to be careful about snubbing the divine. Biblical history of the Hebrew scriptures is replete with such examples. Now Christians who follow Jesus’ directions through the bible don’t come to smash Jews (or anybody else for that matter) over the head for having sinned. These Christians completely understand the situation of being a sinner because they are sinners too, who were lost until God saved them through the promise and power of the gospel. Look at what Jesus actually SAID on that cross, as opposed to what some folks treating Him very disobediently as a club mascot acted. Those folks were defying Jesus. For them to claim that Jesus, the ultimate willing sacrifice, wanted that kind of vengeance, turns the spiritual relationship with Him on its head.
Think again very hard before you dismiss what the gospel did for Jews during the diaspora. It civilized society; even unbelievers realized that there was a higher standard to live to. This cut the attacks on the Jewish people DOWN from what they otherwise might have been. They were part of divine provision for the Jewish people. If you whine too much about the trials brought on the Jews from disobedient Christians, you might think also about the historical whining that went on about the trials of having to wait for divine provision of water and other needful things that God had promised to provide. God forgave, but God did not excuse.
OK, so the various Popes, Martin Luther, etc., weren’t really Christians. They were bad people who gave Christians a bad name.
Got it.
Or the candidate shego has been pushing, the pro-"choice", anti-gun. queer-loving, racebaiting libertarian. /s
Oh, ok.....meh.
Oh, reeeeeeally....I did not know that! Thanks...
The gaydar, commie spotter, gun grabber alarms went off but I gave him/her the benefit of the doubt...
Can I have my last few posts back?
Someone looking for an excuse to hate will always find ample reason, because the desire to hate comes from within, not from without.
That being the case, we should not soften, modify, or stifle the message of truth for fear of those who will hate. Like the poor, they are with us always.
Jackson was preaching, and he was, presumably, preaching a message he thought his flock needed to hear. His primary concern should be preaching truth and bread to his flock, NOT his political candidacy.
Any who would choose to take offense at his words - were never going to vote for a conservative in the first place. Their “fear” and their “offense” are simply lies to justify an immoral choice. That they use such crutches indicates their own need to justify what they know are immoral acts.
Just honestly curious - how would you characterize Joseph Caiaphas? Didn’t he violate Jewish law to further his own ambition before the Jews, even in the face of contrary advice from some of the Sanhedrin?
What about the sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, or the other spies besides Caleb and Joshua? Were they examples by which the faith of the Jews should be judged? The sons of Eli? King Saul? The list of the kings of Israel and Judah who “did evil in the sight of God”?
Or is the Jewish faith more accurately represented by Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, King David, Elijah and Elisha, Jeremiah and Nehemiah?
So it is with Christianity.
There are always those who will take upon themselves a cloak of faith, yet not be faithful to the creed they claim. There will be others, who are more weak than evil (Lot, for example) and stumble and fall in their service.
The Old Testament is full of examples of evil Jews and righteous Jews. Just as Christian history is replete with examples of evil and of piety.
You and I have been friends for a long time here on FR and I am well aware that I jumped all over you last night (though as you can tell from my first post on the thread I was already going to commit "workplace violence" on someone). I have also lately become painfully aware of just how I treat other people (it ain't good), both here and elsewhere. I have a lot of work ahead of me (ken yehi ratzon).
Jewbacca . . . I am heartily sorry for my treatment of you last night. While my opinions are unchanged and my zeal unabated, I am full of regret and shame for the way I behaved toward you, especially considering that Sukkot is when the nations of the world are judged and that Hosha`na' Rabba' is our "day of atonement." I sincerely ask your forgiveness and shall attempt yet again (be`ezrat HaShem, 'aval beli neder) to correct my attitude and my behavior.
The 75 is a reference to FDR and his turning away of the St. Louis — filed with 900 or so Jewish refugees -— back to Nazi Germany, among his other lovely acts.
And you have my forgiveness. I merely point out that your words seemed to imply that you were claiming that until 1938 Jews in America were being told to "convert or die." The turning away of the St. Louis had nothing to do with any conversion crusade.
I don't think you're quite understanding my point, in part because of my own rage-fueled responses to you. I am not defending America or even Amercan chrstians per se. The thing is, I see Jewish aversion to Fundamentalist chrstians as an endorsement or preference for liberal chrstianity and its claims that there is no true religion, no way to know any objective religious truth, and that all religions, while purely man-made, should be respected for whatever rational truth they may contain. Unfortunately, because Judaism is not conventionally proselytary, many Jews assume it is not proselytary at all. This is not so. Indeed, in the distant past the attempts by Jews to convert non-Jews to the Noachide Laws triggered such violent reactions from the host populations that Jews adopted a withdrawn, quietist, and "tolerant" position almost as a necessity of survival.
This false belief in the non-proselytary nature of Judaism leads many Jews to sound like bahai, liberals, ecumaniacs, and eighteenth century enlightenment freemasons in their calls for tolerance and peace among all religions. The Torah does not call anywhere for peace among religions, at least not ultimately (though it's nice to live in a place and time where people aren't constantly slaughtering each other). Implied in many Jewish criticisms of Fundamentalist chrstians in politics is the notion that proselytary religion is itself something that must be destroyed and the only chrstians left share the tolerant attitude of non-proselytary religions (among which they number Judaism, of course). This amounts to a hypocritical "I can be orthodox in my non-proselytary faith, but you in your proselytary faith may not" that makes Jews look very bad. Now mind you--I'm all for outlawing chrstian proselytism in Israel this very minute, and anywhere else if it is done in the name of Jewish Theocracy. I am adamantly opposed to it when it is suggested in the hypocritcal name of liberal "tolerance."
Until Jews decide they want to convert this country to the Noachide Laws immediately (which I am all for), they should refrain from implying that Fundamentalist chrstians be denied the same secular/enlightenment "rights" they so stridently claim for themselves. I hope this helps to dispel some of the heat of my posts and lets a little light shine through.
Also, please understand that liberal chrstians are not the friends of Jews. Their "philo-Semitism" is not in fact philo-Semitism at all but rather a universalist indifferentism which regards Judaism as no more beautiful and worthy of protection than every other religion that has ever existed. And they are just as horrified by the way the ancient Jews treated the Canaanites as they are by how chrstians treat Jews ("the Canaanites of chrstendom"). They're also among the most nasty people in existence. But I suppose you'd have had to have been a fundamentalist chrstian yourself to understand what total mamzerim they are. And yes, while I recognize more than ever how imperfect it is, I still maintain that fundamentalist chrstians (especially the American "dispensational" variety) have a love for Israel that is more sincere than that of the liberals, even though many of the foundations of that love are false. And yes, they drive me crazy sometimes too, as I hope you can see from my arguments with them here. But anyway, would that Jews were as skeptical of and hostile towards the professed friendship of liberal chrstians as they are to that of fundamentalists!
I wish you a peteq tov and hope that your mechilah will permit me to receive one as well.
“My comment was much more limited: this particular speaker’s words were not helpful in recruiting Jewish people to come off the Democrat plantation.”
Any Jews still living in the democrat ghetto (I think that word is better applied here) have ample evidence of its insidious evil, yet they choose to remain - and use benign examples such as this as an EXCUSE for their craven choice, rather than REASON.
The great icons of the US democrat party are FDR, JFK and now BHO - what’s not for a Jew to love????
But I know we agree on that much.
” the Nazis did adopt the trappings of Christianity of all denominations”
Satan is disguised as an angel of light 2 Cor 11:14. A tenet of Christian scripture.
“You shall know them by their fruits” - this does not mean that you judge the faith by the acts of some, as you have. It means that you judge the verity of one’s profession by their acts - and do they line up with how Christ and the apostles called Christians to behave?
Did those people mentioned display the fruit of the spirit? If yes, then we can know they were Christian, if no, then we can know they were not. Of course there is the grey area of some yes and some no - but on one thing we can be certain - Hitler and his crew did NOT display fruit that justifies calling them Christians. Quite the opposite in fact.
His statement has NOTHING to do with citizenship, but with religion. There is nothing in what he said that discredits or diminishes a citizen’s rights or position.
Offense at his words is simply childish.
LOL ;)
I understand your dislike of the group, and certainly take issue with their agenda.
The facts remain, however.
You have nothing to apologize for; such zeal is a wonderful thing.
Again, I think we are in agreement more than we differ.
My point (before it got derailed by the side discussion of “why do Jewish people mistrust Christians”) is this guy is not very diplomatic.
There is a way to say certain things. For example, I recently regret replying to someone who was kvetching about “C.E.” being used in an article about a ruin in Israel instead of “A.D.” —— my reply was “we use C.E. because “A.D.N.H.” was too long (After Death of Notable Heretic). Not a way to win friends or influence people.
My original points is this:
1. Jewish people are, rapidly, turning conservative. They are very unhappy with the Democrat Party, for all the reasons posters here know about.
2. There is a stigma in the overall Jewish community about conservative Jews, largely stemming from the (mistaken) belief that “conservative” leaves no room for people of any faith but Christians.
3. This guys impolitical statement squarely falls into thos who would promote the false beliefs stated in No. 2.
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