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To: dfwgator

I agree. I’d quibble a little, Stalin had the memory of the German advances in WWI — which didn’t differ all that much from the WWII effort, in the main because of the terrain. The WWI German and Austrian forces were deployed probably overly heavy in the east, out of fear of the possible rapidity of advance along the steppe. That’s been the superhighway out of central Asia going back into prehistoric times. That worked both ways.

Also, Stalin’s intel indicated that Hitler was the best possible option for the Soviets, so much like them politically that he would make a great ally. In recent years, the surviving old-timers (who hadn’t previously been executed and whatnot) who worked for Stalin stated that, for weeks after the German invasion began, Stalin seemed to be incredulous and unable to bring himself around to the realization that Hitler had broken his word. Also, there was diplomacy between them, and the Germans were masters of blowing smoke up people’s asses.

The Soviets were also heavily deployed in the east, against the possibility of a Japanese attack. They’d beaten them more than once, and the Japanese actually gave up, concentrating on various wartime atrocities against the Chinese. Against the German invasion the Soviets raised huge “patriotic armies” which were sent with whatever they’d brought with them (pitchforks, scythes, rocks) and fed to the guns.

Soviet losses in that first autumn are reckoned in the 100s of 1000s, and before the first year, somewhere north of 2 million dead. There were also defectors, large bodies of “troops” who just gave themselves up en masse, sometimes happily following the surrender orders announced by their command. As in WWI, Moscow was considered the enemy and betrayer as much as were the Germans.

In the book “Interrogations” there’s an interesting tidbit that finally explained to me why the hell Hitler thought Operation Barbarrosa was a good idea — freelance (probably starving, definitely deprived or dirt poor) cross-border raids from Soviet and Soviet-occupied territory had him concerned that the Red Army was going to storm across the frontier any second, before Germany was ready to violate the agreement first.

Soooo, Hitler drove the UK and what was left of French forces off the continent and — ta-dah! — launched an *offensive* in the east before Germany was ready (if indeed it could have been for the next three or four years).

Molotov was sent to the Far East for hush-hush negotiations with the Japanese, nominally allied with Germany and Italy. He couldn’t get a straight, non-intransigent answer out of ‘em, but told Stalin that he thought the czarist-era peace treaty would hold. So 70 or so divisions including lots of armor were pulled from the east and shipped by train to be hurled against the Reich invasion force. The trains arrived overloaded with troops and gear, and rolled back for more completely empty.

The speed of the Red Army redeployment and resulting counterattacks threw Hitler and his yes-men for a loop. But of course, Hitler was always moaning, “the war is lost!” about every little setback. What a loser.


20 posted on 08/31/2013 6:12:40 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Another little tidbit was that Stalin’s greatest fear was the KPD gaining power in Germany, and ultimately rivaling the Soviet Union for leadership in the worldwide Communist movement. Which is basically why Stalin silently approved of the Nazi roundup of German Communist leaders, like Ernst Thaelmann. Hitler did Stalin’s dirty work for him, in eliminating most of the leadership of the German Communists.


21 posted on 08/31/2013 6:17:55 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: SunkenCiv

The main point that I have taken from the records, manuscripts and papers is that no one really knew what anyone else was doing, everyone was stabbing the other in the back and it was a monumental, worldwide cluster$*&#. I include the allies in this and hold it against Roosevelt most of all. The straightest player was Churchill and we see what that got him. Disrespect in much of his own country.

In politics, like toilets, crap rises to the top.


26 posted on 08/31/2013 7:16:24 PM PDT by ExpatGator (I hate Illinois Nazis!)
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