Posted on 08/16/2013 1:58:54 PM PDT by nickcarraway
About the older girls... good on his Mama. Didn't it used to be older boys who tried to debauch younger girls? It seems things have gone backwards in that regard, at least in my experience.
I'm not advocating sexual relations among the mentally retarded. However... and I know this sounds crass... they still have the primal urge to breed... but they don't have the capacity to understand the consequences. Unless they are kept under constant surveillance, opportunities will arise, most often with others with the same condition.
People who have not been around challenged people may not understand. Retarded people are not generally kept in state schools or mental hospitals. More often than not, they live at home with their parents, they often have jobs of some kind, and are "mainstreamed" into normal society as much as possible. Sometimes, and it looks as though this is the case, they form loving pair-bonds. These people don't live under a microscope where they are constantly monitored.
Common sense says that responsible caregivers should be given some leeway in protecting them from disastrous pregnancy.
I know we tend to bash the judiciary around here, but in reading what the judge had to say, it sounds as though she rendered a reasonable decision based on the facts of this individual case.
FWIW, this took place in England and not in the US. As far as deciding that ““mental” minors have full access to adult activities””, would we really want to give a drivers license to a severely mentally disabled person with the mental age of six, someone who can barely ride a bus on his own or even dress himself and is not able to follow verbal or written instructions? Should we also allow such a person to purchase and own firearms?
I am all for letting the mentally disabled or Down’s Syndrome persons to live up to their fullest potential and as independently as they are capable of living, but let’s be realistic here. This man is 36 years old but has the mental age of about six, he doesn’t hold a job and lives with his parents. He and his “girlfriend” enjoy their relationship and enjoy having sex but the question remains; are they truly even capable of engaging in an “adult” sexual relationship and all the emotional and other responsibilities that this entails or are their parents and care givers allowing them to engage in their most basic animal sexual instincts because they and some of us think that having sex is a some sort of “human right”?
Again I ask, if two six to nine year olds feel the “urge”, should we not only allow but encourage them to have sex? And if not, how is that any different from two people who are of the mental age of between six and nine years old?
I tend to think that the responsible thing to do is to encourage them to develop healthy and non sexual relationships as would be appropriate for someone of their “mental age” and teach them about self control.
I would also ask, what might happen if a 36 year old man with the mental age of six who isn’t able to have sex with his girlfriend anymore, if she becomes no longer interested or breaks up with him? What is to say that by encouraging him that sex is a good thing and his “right”, that he might not understand that having sex is not the be all or end all of life and may not force himself on a less than willing partner.
So you are in favor of allowing people who lack the mental capacity to hold a job, sign a contract, drive a car, need adult supervision (usually provided for by the state), will never grow beyond the mental age of 6 to have children?
How about you adopt those children or at least pay for their care. I am tired of being required (by taxes) to pay for everyone’s desire to have a ‘rich and full life’.
What if folks are tired of the toll your existence takes on society? Who gets to decide?
Did you bother to read the story at all?????
The man asked for a vasectomy. The reason a court was involved is because this man is a WARD OF THE COURT (though cared for by his parents) because of his lack of mental acuity. This happens in the US today for the very same reasons.
At least when you start to make an argument would you please take the time to have the facts of the story at hand so you don’t look as silly as you have
“How would a steward help in this situation?”
How would the government help without infringing on someone’s rights?
One of my husband’s aunts is retarded; she’s in her early 60s, I believe. She’s a sweetheart, and the family loves and cherishes her. In her case, her retardation came about as a result of oxygen deprivation during delivery.
My mother-in-law and her sister bought a small house for her to see if she could deal with a degree of independence. It didn’t work out. She has a medical condition, and she couldn’t be trusted to take her medication. She can be obstinate like a child when you try to get her to do something for her own good; she doesn’t want to listen.
She wanted a cat, so they got her one, but she didn’t take care of it properly. Then it was found out that she was making “meatloaf”, but the meat was undercooked to the point of being nearly raw. I’m convinced it was only the grace and mercy of God that saved her from illness, or worse.
This aunt has had a couple of boyfriends, with a level of retardation comparable to hers, so I imagine she is no virgin. The thing is, if she was unable to take care of a cat or cook food that wouldn’t kill her, how on earth could she care for a baby? Just the thought is frightening to me.
But your later post on this thread made it clear that you not only did not read the article posted, or any others on this particular case, but did exactly what you accuse others of doing.
The topic is the court ordered forced sterilization of mentally retarded adults.
My point was the sterilization was not “forced”, but was desired by the mentally retarded man, his family, and his court ordered guardians.
Approving/disapproving of the mentally retarded man's sex life is a moot point, as he has already “fathered” one child, so is obviously engaging in sex.Separating him from his "partner" was destructive to both of them,(so the articles stated) so the question becomes what to legally do about both of them now, given the current situation between two specific mentally retarded adults. Should this couple have been allowed the opportunity to have engaged in a sexual relationship in the first place? My common sense answer would be: NO. But legally,that's an entirely different question.
I remember reading a book years back by Jean Vanier, the Canadian Catholic who founded L’Arche --- a confederation of 100+ communities around the world where people with developmental disabilities live with those who care for them. They sometimes encountered difficult situations involving community members who were physically sexually mature and even the size and strength of adults, but had the emotions, the level of understanding, and the degree of impulse control of little children.
These men and women were vulnerable to becoming entangled in many conflicted situations, becoming sexual aggressive, victims of the aggressive, or angry or depressed because of emotions of frustration, confusion or loneliness.
I believe Vanier's communities' approach was to dedicate themselves to providing more opportunities for the disabled to experience friendship and fellowship, hugging and holding, playing, dancing, music, just tumbling about, without sexualizing all these experiences. The goal was to aim for enjoying simple closeness and a sense of secure belonging, without crossing over into tumultuous genital arousal which they could not responsibly control.
It was sensitively written --- and sensitively lived --- I think Vanier is a spiritual master of compassion.
If I could find that book ---
Oh here it is, I found it at amazon.com:
Male and Female God Mad Them (Link)
Worth a look.
You’re right, I’m sorry, I only read the excerpt, and was replying in the context of the other poster who seemed to support the view that the mentally challenged do not have the right to reproduce.
Thanks.
The thing is, sexual urges are governed by deeply primitive instincts in the mind, and whether the person has the capacity of a 6 yo or an adult, those urges will manifest into actions. Even animals have sex to reproduce. Insects too. How can a human committee ethically prevent them from reproducing without the same illogic being used in other areas for other people, too?
If “God” made them with functional reproductive systems, She ought to be able to have plans for those individuals created by their sexual activities. Healthy, normal children have been born to mentally challenged people before. Who are you to prevent this?
While I can understand that some will disapprove of mentally retarded adults engaging in sex, in the exact same way they would disapprove of any unmarried couple engaging in sex, I don't see a problem otherwise, for anybody else.
I disagree emphatically
my aunt who I help ,care for is retarded...similar circumstance to what Catherine described but much less mature.....sex for her would be like for a 5 year old.....so wrong its sick to even consider
I fear gen xers must think its all Corky in Life Goes On....its not......I have never been as disappointed on this forum as by this thread....and being a Southerner on a forum that occasionally delights in comparing us to Nazis ....that is saying something
I am a Southerner.
I don't know what you really are, but if many people on this forum have called you a NAZI...you just might possibly be acting like one.
At the very least, you exhibit a decided lack of reading comprehension skills.
But hey!
Have a nice day.
“Unprecedented Court Ruling”
All liberal tyrants have done this. It isn’t unprecedented. Hitler did it. Mao did it. Stalin did it. Pol Pot did it. FDR wanted to do it. All the liberal tyrants have done it.
Own what you write ma’am.
You wrote that sex between retarded persons was offensive to some like premarital sex was but to you no big deal.
Your wrote it...you own it.
Anyone cares to can read for themsleves in post 114 right upthread can see it in plain view...you could ask the mod to rip it if you’ve changed your mind now.
I think you are nuts if you think sex between retarded folks is not “a problem otherwise”...your exact words
If you’d like to change that opinion please feel free to do so...so my Gnatziness and your flakiness notwithstanding...you have a nice night dear.
Exactly
And if I’m a Nazi because I shudder at the thought of my husband’s aunt, who cannot take care of herself without putting her own well-being, and even life, in danger, well....whatever.
Let's just lock up all retarded people (no matter the severity of their individual disability) everywhere in some nice,safe, secluded place, and pretend they are an alternative species.
Let's pretend they are not human beings, subject to the same laws and protections as everyone else!
And while we are at it, lets just totally ignore their loving family caregivers input into how best to balance laws and autonomy on an individual basis.
Since merely forbidding “retards” having sex didn't work, lock them both up, right?
That will surely fix the problem!
You've never said whether or not you actually read this article, or any of the many others on this rather widely reported single case.(The topic being forced sterilization)
I guess it's just easier for you to assume whatever it is you want to assume, and selectively ignore anything else anyone says, that doesn't completely align with your supposedly superior stated views.
My opinion on this issue remains unchanged, for the most part.
That mentally retarded adults are fully human, endangered persons, and in need of an extra layer of societal and carefull legal protection, lest they be neglected or abused.
I would not nominate you to be an ombudsman on their behalf.
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