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Once 'Overhyped and Sexy,' Solar Tumbles
CNBS ^

Posted on 03/31/2013 4:58:00 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA

The excitement over solar power, which once attracted billions in private investment and public subsidies, has waned recently, underscoring the limitations of renewable energies and the unchallenged dominance of fossil fuels. Some of the $75 billion sector's high profile names have fallen on hard times recently - most notably Suntech Power (STP). The China-based solar panel company rattled the industry when it filed for bankruptcy last week. In its heyday, the stock traded just shy of $90 and had a market capitalization of $16 billion: on Thursday, the last day U.S. markets were open, the shares traded around for 42 cents each.

"The overall story is about growth and declining costs," said Arno Harris, chairman of the SEIA Board, in an interview. Much like the way low-cost natural gas is transforming the U.S. energy market, "[solar] costs have come down so dramatically, it's created a Darwinian environment," Harris added. He pointed to the collapse in silicon - a linchpin of solar panel manufacturing - which has led to a steep drop in prices per watt of solar panels. That amount is now less than a dollar, down sharply from $4 per watt a few years ago, making it difficult for companies to make money. Yet in many ways, Suntech's spectacular fall is a microcosm of a sector in transition, and holds lessons for U.S. solar firms. As domestic drilling and abundant natural gas has stoked expectations for U.S. energy independence, it has also sapped attention from renewable energy.

(Excerpt) Read more at finance.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: energy; greenenergy; solar; yahoo

1 posted on 03/31/2013 4:58:00 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA
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To: Red in Blue PA

Imagine that.

Ayatoilet Barky’s fair-haired boy crashed.


2 posted on 03/31/2013 4:59:35 AM PDT by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Once ‘Overhyped and Sexy,’ Solar Tumbles

The excitement over solar power, which once attracted billions in private investment and public subsidies, has waned recently, underscoring the limitations of renewable energies and the unchallenged dominance of fossil fuels


Call me optimistic, But I do hope to see a similar headline about Obama and company soon.


3 posted on 03/31/2013 5:01:06 AM PDT by The Working Man
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To: Red in Blue PA

Because we have enough cheap natural gas to last for hundreds of years, we don’t need ethanol, solar or wind projects. They are money pits created by enviro-nazis in their quest to remake America into a third-world hovel. The first move in dismantling these atrocities is eliminating the EPA, Nixon’s biggest blunder.


4 posted on 03/31/2013 5:03:17 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: txrefugee

It was simply a technology bubble. In the 1970s...everyone felt that solar would arrive one day. Well...by the late 1990s...the crowd felt solar was now on the verge of arriving and delivering a massive contribution to society. They guessed wrong. Solar has yet to arrive.

When your entire house can run on half the amount of power that you currently consume....and the solar apparatus on your roof can deliver one-hundred percent of what you need at least 200 days out of the year....then it’ll amount to something. Today’s just not that day.


5 posted on 03/31/2013 5:10:12 AM PDT by pepsionice
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To: Red in Blue PA

About three years back, my wife had someone come over to do an estimate for a solar system on our house to supplement our regular power. As part of the estimate, they did an analysis of how long it would take us to break even on the investment. It was 20 years—I kid you not. And I’m sure they were being as optimistic as possible.

No thanks.


6 posted on 03/31/2013 5:16:22 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: pepsionice

The only viable green energy is hydroelectric so naturally the greenies are desperate to tear out as many dams as possible.


7 posted on 03/31/2013 5:22:57 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: rbg81
break even on the investment. It was 20 years...

And may I presume that was WITH heavy federal subsidies and tax breaks, in other words, other taxpayers helping to shift the break-even from 40 years to 20?

8 posted on 03/31/2013 5:29:51 AM PDT by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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To: Red in Blue PA

End all subsidies for solar, wind, ethanol, and oil now,
and see which one is standing in two years. Hint: The only one that is economically viable.


9 posted on 03/31/2013 5:39:01 AM PDT by Fireone (Impeach and imprison, NOW! Treason and murder are still crimes.)
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To: txrefugee

Solar has it’s place. As you drive the interstates you see lots of installations of solar panels powering various devices and far removed from wires.

The same is true for say pumping water on remote pastures some distance away from wires. Ditto residences far removed from wires.


10 posted on 03/31/2013 5:44:22 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 .....History is a process, not an event)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Fewer and fewer people are convinced of the environmental damage fossil fuels are causing. Thanks to skeptics and the alternative press, the hoaxes and exaggerations have come to light.

The cycle of global warming has ceased and may be reversing. It’s gotten to the point where we barely hear the term global warming any longer. It’s been replaced with the term climate change which is an all encompassing term that any natural disaster (unusual heat, cold, snow, storms, earthquakes, etc.) can be blamed on.

Doesn’t help matters that whenever and wherever there is a global summit on the matter, a brutal cold snap with accompanying snow and ice appears. This is especially the case whenever Al Gore is due to make an appearance. :)


11 posted on 03/31/2013 5:44:25 AM PDT by randita
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To: txrefugee
The first move in dismantling these atrocities is eliminating the EPA, Nixon’s biggest blunder.

Oh no, the EPA and DHS will one day be combined. Ya know, like Freddy Krueger and Jason Voorhees morphed into the Department of WAFTGAWAHTHY (we are from the government and we are here to help you). How's your meds holding out?

12 posted on 03/31/2013 6:05:13 AM PDT by VRW Conspirator (Cyprus - the beginning)
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To: bert

Indeed.

Solar has its place...So does the occasional windmill. Everything “has its place”.

The atrocities occur when the greenies want THEIR projects to usurp everything else.


13 posted on 03/31/2013 6:06:02 AM PDT by left that other site (Worry is the darkroom that developes negatives.)
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To: pepsionice
...the crowd felt solar was now on the verge of arriving and delivering a massive contribution to society.

At best, solar panels can be purchased at $4-5 per watt, IIRC. The commercial efficiency is about 15%. Laboratories claim efficiencies of 30% to 50% (that and $4.50 will get you a Frappuccino at Starbucks) . The real improvement over the years was in the durability of a panel; the warrantees are into 20 years, again IIRC.

The breakthroughs that the market was and is waiting for is in cost of manufacturing and efficiency. Bring the cost per watt down and get more power out per panel, and all the while keep the quality/longevity the same. We are still waiting. Of course, if you can bribe an "expert" in solar energy to endorse a new manufacturing process, you too can get a huge govmint subsidy.

The math: with an average electric bill of $200-300 a month as the method of recouping any costs ideally ($12, 000 to $18,000 over 5 years), how much is a homeowner willing to spend up front? The numbers are actually less attractive.

14 posted on 03/31/2013 6:30:00 AM PDT by VRW Conspirator (Cyprus - the beginning)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Schadenfreude .. when AlGork’s misery just cries out for some salt rubbed in !


15 posted on 03/31/2013 6:45:02 AM PDT by tomkat ( .. I repeat it, sir, let it come)
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To: Red in Blue PA

the reason solar was doomed from the start is simple: once you get set up with a workable system, you no longer have to buy anything from the conglomerates that support he political system. Can’t have people having real independence now, can we?


16 posted on 03/31/2013 6:56:51 AM PDT by jdub (A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.)
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To: VRW Conspirator

Because of the proliferation of Chinese panels, the arrays themselves are now down to around $1 per watt. Panels rated at 250 watts can be had for less than $300. Then add in the balance of the equipment: wiring, inverter, control center, grid-tying, installation, etc. - maybe another $1.50 to $2 per watt - less if you can DIY the install.

WITH federal and state subsidies via tax-credits (65% combined here in NC), you can re-coup costs in 5 years. Plus, you’re fixing your cost of electricity, vs. being subject to regular increases from your utility company.

WITHOUT subsidies, it’d take 15 years to pay for itself. Panels degrade over time, and the typical warranty is that they’ll produce 80% of their rating at 25 years. That means break-even at best vs. doing nothing.

If costs continue to decline, you’ll probably see more adoption - at least until the subsidies expire in 2016 (unless renewed). I’m half-considering it myself - I’m way over-taxed, and this would be a way I could get some of it back. But it will be an economic decision - not because I’m worried about the size of my carbon footprint.


17 posted on 03/31/2013 7:00:08 AM PDT by Be Free (I believe in gun control. The more people that control their own guns, the safer we'll all be.)
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To: left that other site

———.So does the occasional windmill.———

I hiked into the far back country of Philmont Scout Ranch. They have wells at the back country camps and once had windmills. The windmills were replaced by battery electric pumps and an array of solar cells.


18 posted on 03/31/2013 7:00:32 AM PDT by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 .....History is a process, not an event)
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To: bert

Well there you go...everything has its place. Whatever WORKS is good. :-)

Solar doesn’t work too well in New England, for example.

However, in Israel, everybody has a little solar array on top of their house to make their own hot water.

Unfortunately, the left HATES Israel, so their successes in “alternative energy” don’t count! LOL.

Which brings us to the crux of the matter.

Solar and wind are not scientific...they are POLITICAL.

JMO, of course.


19 posted on 03/31/2013 7:05:27 AM PDT by left that other site (Worry is the darkroom that developes negatives.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Much like the way low-cost natural gas is transforming the U.S. energy market, “[solar] costs have come down so dramatically, it’s created a Darwinian environment,” Harris added. He pointed to the collapse in silicon - a linchpin of solar panel manufacturing - which has led to a steep drop in prices per watt of solar panels. That amount is now less than a dollar, down sharply from $4 per watt a few years ago, making it difficult for companies to make money.


Read the article people. The costs of solar have come down from $4 a watt to $1 a watt. Does this prove that ultimately solar will succeed? Of course not. But it does show that the technology itself is making progress and in so doing has made it harder for individual companies to make money. If I were a solar advocate I would tend to think this supports the case for the technology not detracts from it. If the cost per watt had stayed the same or gone up that would be a failure scenario IMHO.


20 posted on 03/31/2013 7:10:55 AM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: rbg81

“About three years back, my wife had someone come over to do an estimate for a solar system on our house to supplement our regular power. As part of the estimate, they did an analysis of how long it would take us to break even on the investment. It was 20 years—I kid you not. And I’m sure they were being as optimistic as possible.

No thanks.”

Panels have come down a lot in the past few years, so maybe run the numbers again. I’m not saying you’re wrong, as I don’t know your design or climate details, but I am saying what was 20 years payback three years ago is likely 13 years now. Also consider a few things:

1) There’s a good chance that the rates for power will go up...especially if they go to tiered pricing, as they already have in California, where they give you the lowest rate for what they call Baseline Usage (very low), which is about 450 kWh per month - but then they ream you if you go over, on the order of 20 to 30 cents per kWh. So if you generate your own power, it’s worth around 25 cents per kWh to your electric bill, which is at least 2 times what is typically paid on a flat rate plan.

2) There’s a good chance they will go to dynamic pricing, which is the whole point of the “smart meters”. Similar to tiered pricing, they make you pay higher rates if you don’t “behave” per their requirements. In dynamic pricing, they jack up the rates late in the day and more in the summer, as people get home from work and run their AC units.

3) We still don’t know where things are going in this country overall with regard to power. We’re DEFINITELY not building power plants fast enough, and we may well be forced into one of the above two options, just to keep power flowing.

4) If you get a system that can work with both grid-tie (as you considered) and off-grid, then you simply add batteries and you won’t even need the utility (but the batteries aren’t cheap, so I wouldn’t recommend them until they’re needed), but if the system is not designed for batteries as an option, it would require major modification to use batteries.

5) If your payback is 13 years, you’re looking at close to a 5.5% ROI, which isn’t bad for a fixed income investment. If the payback gets cut in half (say, due to higher grid rates, for example), then your ROI goes up to 11%.

Needless to say, I would do it, as above, by my friggen neighbor has a HUGE TREE blocking my only good roof exposure. So I sit here and calculate, and dream about my next house.


21 posted on 03/31/2013 7:51:51 AM PDT by BobL (Look up "CSCOPE" if you want to see something really scary)
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To: VRW Conspirator

“...At best, solar panels can be purchased at $4-5 per watt, IIRC.”

Not anymore. With the federal rebate, you can get grid-tie systems installed for around $2.00 per watt. Obviously systems that can take batteries cost more...and then the batteries themselves even more.

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html


22 posted on 03/31/2013 7:54:15 AM PDT by BobL (Look up "CSCOPE" if you want to see something really scary)
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To: rbg81
It was 20 years—I kid you not.

And I'm pretty sure that didn't include maintenance. Those payback calculations rarely do.

23 posted on 03/31/2013 7:56:23 AM PDT by BfloGuy (The economy is not a pie, but a bakery.)
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To: VRW Conspirator

the breakthrough will occur when the sun produces more energy density.
until then solar will only help marginally


24 posted on 03/31/2013 8:05:14 AM PDT by hecht (america 9/11, Israel 24/7)
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To: left that other site

“Solar doesn’t work too well in New England”

Actually it works just fine in NE, have wired several systems myself.

Here’s the thing, a lot of scam companies are gone (or going soon), those that remain are providing better products, service. One of the big improvements is roof mounted microinverters - they convert DC to AC one panel at a time, they are wired in parallel so that if one panel is shaded the whole string no longer goes down like older systems.

Eventually only the strong will remain.


25 posted on 03/31/2013 8:14:13 AM PDT by Sparky1776
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To: Red in Blue PA

The so called “Green” movement exists solely as a means to funnel taxpayer monies to political friends individually and collectively. There is, of course, a rakeoff to the “Divine One.”


26 posted on 03/31/2013 8:16:35 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Sparky1776

Whatever works!

If the principles of capitalism are followed, then good stuff that works will prevail, and the dross will fall away.

Unfortunately, it has been the policy of the present administration to employ CRONY “capitalism”, and use taxpayers’ money to support scams and boondoggles, and thus discouraging private enterprise.


27 posted on 03/31/2013 8:18:27 AM PDT by left that other site (Worry is the darkroom that developes negatives.)
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To: Sparky1776

Whatever happened to the photovoltaic fabric that was being developed a few years ago. It came in a roll and was around a buck back then.


28 posted on 03/31/2013 8:21:44 AM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Hey RATS! Control your murdering freaks.)
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To: rbg81
It was 20 years—I kid you not.

Yes it is.

Some of the most cost effective solar's are:

* The electric attic fans, dramtically reduce you A/C load.
* Solar H20, if you make them from scratch and or kit and you are plumber and electrican enough to pull it off.
* Proper house orientation, if building from new, 20% of your heating for free if you do it right.
* The old Trombe Wall Passive Heating. Can be done as a retrofit, but maybe better new, and I don't know if anyone has revisited it today with maybe some techno-upgrades. in the lates 70's claims of 50% of you heating could be had from this wall.

Many if not all of these can be done without the Fedzilla benny bucks which is fine with me.

I had an Idea this a.m. a variant of the Trombe Wall that I need to run by my hvac / anything home guru that just might work.....

29 posted on 03/31/2013 8:23:13 AM PDT by taildragger (( Tighten the 5 point harness and brace for Impact Freepers, ya know it's coming..... ))
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To: bert

The question I have always had is, what happens to those things when the sun doesn’t shine, and doesn’t shine for a long enough period of time that the storage batteries run down? I guess then we do without those things. That’s okay for a highway sign, but I sure wouldn’t want to be caught in the middle of a mid-continent winter without reliable heating, or a humid Florida or baking hot Arizona summer without A/C.


30 posted on 03/31/2013 8:29:42 AM PDT by chimera
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To: taildragger

My parents were looking to retire to New Mexico (my mom’s home state) and were looking at lots of home designs. This was in the late 90s early 00s. Quite a few include some form of Trombe wall. They were seriously considering straw bale with a Trombe wall, but my dad started getting health problems, so they just stayed put.


31 posted on 03/31/2013 8:42:58 AM PDT by Betis70 ("Leading from Behind" gets your Ambassador killed)
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To: chimera

>>baking hot Arizona summer without A/C.

Has there ever been a baking hot summer in AZ without lots of sunshine? Heck there is lots of sunshine there in January, which is why they don’t bother with ‘daylight savings’. Such places make more sense for solar than any other in the country.

I agree about mid-continent winters, and Florida/SE Atlantic/gulf coast states, more because of the inherent fragility of solar panels when hurricanes arrive.


32 posted on 03/31/2013 8:49:23 AM PDT by Betis70 ("Leading from Behind" gets your Ambassador killed)
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To: Be Free
... $1 per watt.

Thanks for the update. It has been a while since I stuck my head into PV installations.

PV makes a lot of sense in certain situations but it is indeed a economic decision. I still think the govmint needs to get its nose out of the business and let the market decide.

33 posted on 03/31/2013 8:53:53 AM PDT by VRW Conspirator (Cyprus - the beginning)
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To: BobL
Not anymore. With the federal rebate, you can get grid-tie systems installed for around $2.00 per watt. Obviously systems that can take batteries cost more...and then the batteries themselves even more.

what are the maitenance costs and how often do you need to climb onto the roof to clean then?

34 posted on 03/31/2013 9:05:34 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan (The)
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To: jdub
the reason solar was doomed from the start is simple: once you get set up with a workable system, you no longer have to buy anything from the conglomerates that support he political system. Can’t have people having real independence now, can we?

Panels degrade over time. By the time you get payback from having solar, it's time to replace the panels.

Unmentioned is the cost and effort of keeping the panels clean. Panels encrusted with dirt and bird poop will not generate much electricity. Cleaning the panels regularly will involve getting up on the roof with buckets of water and detergent. They also don't mention the environmental impact of manufacturing thousands of square miles of solar panels.

35 posted on 03/31/2013 9:22:32 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

“what are the maitenance costs and how often do you need to climb onto the roof to clean then?”

Fair point. Not having had one (yet) I can’t say. Looking at the web, I’d estimate every 2 months or so. There are also other factors working against my (optimistic) ROI, such as cells degrading (they lose something like 1% per year...which adds up), and possible hardware failures and/or breakage.


36 posted on 03/31/2013 11:13:55 AM PDT by BobL (Look up "CSCOPE" if you want to see something really scary)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

Just from looking around a bit, it looks like the losses from dirty panels are 10% to 25%, with the higher numbers being in dusty areas. So, for myself, I’d like just bump up the size of the system by 10%, and eat the losses for a while, and clean every two years or so. There is a limit to how long you can get away with that because if the dirt gets concentrated in one area, that can cause permanent damage to the panel.


37 posted on 03/31/2013 11:27:31 AM PDT by BobL (Look up "CSCOPE" if you want to see something really scary)
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To: VRW Conspirator

At best, solar panels can be purchased at $4-5 per watt, IIRC
+++++++++
Nope. Current price to contractors is about $0.80 per watt and expected to reach $0.50 in the near future. That $0.80 will get you about 5 watt- hrs per day in Southern Califonia. That’s about 1.8 kilowatt-hrs per year. Currently a KWH costs about $0.20 so your $0.80 investment saved you $0.36 in only one year.

Not bad.

On the other hand, professional installation isn’t cheap and there are ancillary hardware and permit costs.

The point is that the solar panel business is a terrible low margin business but, given the cheap panels, solar system are becoming more and more viable.

And the rebates are drying up as they should.


38 posted on 03/31/2013 3:24:51 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: Betis70
Where I live, today I have seen the sun for the first time in about six days. I'm pretty sure my storage batteries (if I had any) would have been long depleted. Since most people don't like to be without power for much more than a few hours, I'm pretty sure the last few days would have been lousy in terms of comfort and productivity.

Coastal areas are kind of bad for things like windmills and solar panels. I can't resist telling this story (anecdotal, but true) about one of my Mom's neighbors on the East Coast who thought he'd "beat" the local utility by putting up both a windmill and ground-level solar panels. Wasn't a bad bet, plenty of wind at the shore and the total sunny days wasn't bad. So he put them up. Worked okay until his neighbors (not my Mom) got a court order to shut down his windmill. Too much noise, blocking sunlight, "flicker", etc. So that one fizzled out. Then a few years later a hurricane came up the coast and washed his solar panels away. The guy wasn't too sorry to see that happen because by then he was getting a little arthritic and tired of cleaning the sand and seagull poop off of the panels. So he took his insurance settlement and lived a happy life back on the grid, which in that area was supplied by a nuclear plant a few miles up the road that has something like a 90+% capacity factor (i.e., is very, very reliable and safe).

39 posted on 03/31/2013 3:39:20 PM PDT by chimera
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