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White House Weighs Broad Gun-Control Agenda in Wake of Newtown Shootings
The Washington Post ^ | Saturday, January 5, 2013 | Philip Rucker

Posted on 01/05/2013 3:46:46 PM PST by kristinn

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To: listenhillary

If I didn’t take me so long to form my post, I might have beat you to the punch...great minds and all that...


101 posted on 01/06/2013 6:28:12 AM PST by Wasichu
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To: Bryanw92

One of the scary proposals is to make it illegal to have a gun “near a school.” I assume that would make it illegal for a homeowner who lives near a school to own a gun. That would affect millions of gunowners, because anyone who lives in a city or a suburb lives “near a school.”


102 posted on 01/06/2013 6:36:54 AM PST by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: cripplecreek

Actually, my comments were nothing at all defensive, and in reality, it was a subtle way to get the democrats to bite on a pro-gun idea. Notice the part at the end of my comments where I said, “free gun money”? IOW, there would be nothing to stop people from getting that money and using it to purchase more guns. Besides, the constitution would have to be amended to outlaw the ownership of guns.


103 posted on 01/06/2013 6:45:48 AM PST by adorno (Y)
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To: ought-six

Also, anyone walking or driving past a school, with a gun on their person, would be in violation of that law. That law would end up being a nightmare to enforce.


104 posted on 01/06/2013 6:48:18 AM PST by adorno (Y)
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To: 45semi
>>They havent done jack sh_t about all the firearms related crime in Detroit & Chicago in all this time,<<

Our borders have remained wide open for decades and as a result, we have hundreds of thousands of gang bangers in our inner cities originating from very violent latin American crime syndicates.

Latin Kings, MS13, Crazy Click and on and on. These people would shoot you in the forehead just for looking at them wrong.

Along with the ignorant inner city black gangs...keepin it real, this is the core of the majority of gun violence in America.

NOT LAW ABIDING AMERICANS!

We just want to work, play, raise our kids without thugs stealing our stuff and without an over burdening government attempting to control every aspect of our lives.

Uncle Sugar...I know your listening...leave us the hell alone! We've bothered no one, we've not harmed any kids, we've not transported humans across the border nor bales of contraband.

Let us live in peace, we are not spoiling for a fight.

105 posted on 01/06/2013 6:49:51 AM PST by servantboy777
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To: kristinn

I think it was Huckabee who noted that more kids are killed with hammers in the U.S. than with guns. Will Hussein confiscate/outlaw all hammers?


106 posted on 01/06/2013 6:56:08 AM PST by MayflowerMadam
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To: Bryanw92
Full Registration!! Then, “turn em in, Mr and Mrs America.”

In Germany it started with registration of the JEW'S guns.

The Night of the Broken Glass (Kristallnacht)--the infamous Nazi rampage against Germany's Jews--took place in November 1938. It was preceded by the confiscation of firearms from the Jewish victims. On Nov. 8, the New York Times reported from Berlin, "Berlin Police Head Announces 'Disarming' of Jews," explaining:

The Berlin Police President, Count Wolf Heinrich von Helldorf, announced that as a result of a police activity in the last few weeks the entire Jewish population of Berlin had been "disarmed" with the confiscation of 2,569 hand weapons, 1,702 firearms and 20,000 rounds of ammunition. Any Jews still found in possession of weapons without valid licenses are threatened with the severest punishment. (New York Times, Nov. 9, 1938, 24. )

I look for the end result of all this 2013 huffing and puffing to produce a executive order that requires all guns to be register of any organization or individual who opposes the White Hut clown - you know like NRA members, FReepers, Ted Nugent, and Tea Party activists identified by the "OUR PEOPLE'S" DOJ organization, if you know what I mean.
107 posted on 01/06/2013 7:02:20 AM PST by Cheerio (Barry Hussein Soetoro-0bama=The Complete Destruction of American Capitalism)
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To: AD from SpringBay
If the GOP controlled house folds on this, the republic is done.

Under the - just reelected - current let's make a deal Weeper leadership, you can count on it.

And yes, it is over.
108 posted on 01/06/2013 7:11:56 AM PST by Cheerio (Barry Hussein Soetoro-0bama=The Complete Destruction of American Capitalism)
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To: Bryanw92; davetex; stevie_d_64; re_nortex; mnehring
>>track the movement and sale of weapons through a national database, ....

Full Registration!! Then, “turn em in, Mr and Mrs America.”


Exactly-right bump. A national registry of gun owners, which Congress has repeatedly told the Executive Branch not to attempt.

Gun owners are to be the New Jews -- Jued Suess!! -- and this will be the Gun Jew Registry. Know a Jew? Turn him in! (George Soros did!)

First the racial laws, and later the Wannsee Protocol -- the death sentence of European Jewry.

Why is it that only a few of us see where these b*stards are going with this stuff?

There have been various rumors of variable reliability floating around, but this is the first solid gobbet, the first lump in the diarrhea stream that we knew was coming the minute The Noncitizen Usurper fired the starter's pistol the afternoon of the Newtown shooting.

109 posted on 01/06/2013 7:24:58 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Wasichu
They’re openly admitting they’ll use EO’s if they have to. Congress has no backbone, hasn’t called him on any of his other EO’s.

Exactly right. I have been posting for months that until the Congress challenges these "ILLEGAL" shenanigans, the White Hut clown will not only continue to use illegal EOs, but will increase his power grab in ever more obvious orders. The sheeple ignore it and tell the posters that clown-in-chief is doing one heck of a job against those nasty do-nothing Republicans. The GOP sits on its collective a$$ quivering in front of the state run media.

Someone else posted that for every attack by the left on Guns, the GOP should propose a relaxation of gun controls currently on the books. At this point it doesn't matter that these proposals will go no where in the Senate - get out in front of the Kabuki theater game.
110 posted on 01/06/2013 7:26:35 AM PST by Cheerio (Barry Hussein Soetoro-0bama=The Complete Destruction of American Capitalism)
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To: Hoosier-Daddy
Each of these shooters lately were insane, and at least two had some Satanist leanings. I would not put it past the government at all to make these people useful (albeit insane) idiots.

I went back and looked at Wikipedia articles about the original "school shooting" in Stockton, Calif., in 1989, that prompted California to pass a broad ban on AK- and AR-type "assault rifles". Shooter Patrick Purdy was a drifter, loner, oddjobs, druggie, half-crazy .... and had peace symbols and slogans on his clothing. Yup, another one of theirs.

This is all about totalitarian ideology and State confiscation of our weapons and establishing a monopoly of force -- a tyranny. Schools, kids, and lone drifters have nothing to do with the underlying motive for gun-grabbing.

111 posted on 01/06/2013 7:37:27 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: servantboy777
Let us live in peace, we are not spoiling for a fight.

They are spoiling for a fight -- the Left, the Usurper and his Alien Larva Eric Holder's DoJ.

You want peace -- and they think they can take you. That's why they are spoiling for a fight.

112 posted on 01/06/2013 7:55:30 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Hoosier-Daddy
Time for gun owners to march on Washington, preferably wearing Gadsden flags.

I would prefer carrying Gadsden flags and peaceably carrying our weapons. Virginia is an open carry state. DC is not. Maryland is not. We assemble in VA and march to the border of DC. We open a second front on the PA and MD border. PA is an open carry state. There are over a million hunters in PA, which would mean there are well over a million people who have weapons. That is larger than Russia's active military.

Obviously, the logistics for such a march is immense. But it would be a very persuasive. :)

113 posted on 01/06/2013 8:13:59 AM PST by ConservativeInPA
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114 posted on 01/06/2013 9:03:06 AM PST by RedMDer (Those that believe in gun free zones should put GUN FREE ZONE on their property and persons.)
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To: kristinn

And NONE of the things listed would have stopped Sandy Hill Shooting.

I am so sick of stupid people.


115 posted on 01/06/2013 10:24:43 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: kristinn

Let’s ban noncitizens from owning firearms and insist on this being in ANY new bill.


116 posted on 01/06/2013 11:01:54 AM PST by SecondAmendment (Restoring our Republic at 9.8357x10^8 FPS)
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To: lentulusgracchus

>>Why is it that only a few of us see where these b*stards are going with this stuff?

Because people are:

a) Stupid
b) Scared
c) Complacent
d) All of the Above

Stupid: The American people don’t know squat about history. They watch dozens of documentaries on the Nazis on History Channel, but none of them ever talk about how decent, hard-working European Christians turned into monsters in a decade. They think that Nazis have to be Germans and Communists have to be Russian. They think that the Constitution will protect us, even if no one is willing to die protecting the Constitution. They even think that cops will give up their pay checks, perks, and pensions to tell their bosses “No” when ordered to collect our guns.

Scared: Some can see the parallels and they choose to hide their head in the sand because they are scared of what it is going to take to fix this. Election of a GOP President is not going to fix anything. Election of a GOP controlled Congress isn’t going to fix anything. To fix America, we have to take some harsh measures to get people working again. The GOP doesn’t have anything that even resembles a plan. They don’t even have any sensible bullet points on a PowerPoint slide! Obama has plan...and that plan is communism and a greatly lowered standard of living. You don’t do that to a nation of 330 million in less than one generation without bloodshed, so he wants to disarm us before he puts the shackles on us.

Complacent: Some are just comfortable where we are. They make enough money to have all the luxuries and they believe that the consumer goods will keep flowing no matter what. They aren’t going to get up out of their recliner to keep a gun that they’ve never used after that first trip to the range.

Most of us fit into one or more of those three categories. If we didn’t, we’d be burning Washington for the tax “deal”, the fiscal cliff debacle, the debt ceiling, the failed wars, ObamaCare, and now their clear intention to take our arms.


117 posted on 01/06/2013 11:11:41 AM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: reaganaut
And NONE of the things listed would have stopped Sandy Hill Shooting.

Precisely. The one thing which could have stopped it would be letting the teachers and staff of the school who chose to do so get the training and carry a weapon on the premises. Instead, doubling down on the weapon free target zone concept seems to be their aim.

I am so sick of stupid people.

Our government has worked for generations to ensure an adequate supply of worker drones and slackjawed minions whose vote can be bought with little more than a promise and the assurance that things would have been 'so much worse' had they not acted as they did, often to the detriment of the selfsame people they claimed to be helping. Thus, the loyalty of those the Government has 'helped' through hard times is misplaced; they see only the hand that helps and not the one which robs them not only of their treasure, but of their dignity, self-respect, ambition, and their Liberty at the same time as the other doles out morsels which are barely adequate at best.

This is the new slave class in America, the serfs pay land rent and give up an ever-growing portion of their labors to support the slaves.

The question is one of who will revolt first. Will it be the slaves (to the government) who have been convinced the serfs are the reason for their slavery, or the serfs who have been bled dry by the government and the slaves?

Either way, if we do not restore the Republic to within its Constitutional boundaries we have a long, harsh, and bloody time ahead of us. I have less faith that than can be peacefully accomplished with each passing day.

Beneath all of this we are encumbered with Mass Media which daily promote the violent end of the Republic, and they should reap the wind they sow first.

118 posted on 01/06/2013 12:24:41 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Chode
the Rubicon is in sight...

Their wading us into it already.

119 posted on 01/06/2013 12:38:09 PM PST by DTogo (High time to bring back The Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: DTogo
pretty much...
120 posted on 01/06/2013 12:50:10 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Chode
Their -> They're

D'oh!

121 posted on 01/06/2013 1:02:24 PM PST by DTogo (High time to bring back The Sons of Liberty !!)
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**


122 posted on 01/06/2013 2:18:59 PM PST by PMAS (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing)
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To: kristinn
BAXTER: We got your boy, Spearman! You better drop them guns and come walking down the street or I shoot him. You've got ten seconds!

CHARLEY WAITE: We ain't giving up our guns. He's gonna kill Button anyway.

BAXTER: One!

CHALEY WAITE: The only chance for him or us when we walk up is these guns.

BAXTER: Two! Three!

(To Waite) SPEARMAN: He's from the government, and he's here to help!

123 posted on 01/06/2013 3:22:14 PM PST by 444Flyer (Genesis 12:3)
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To: kristinn

Oddly enough, none of the measures mentioned in the article would have prevented Sandy Hook. It’s almost as if they have another agenda. /sarc


124 posted on 01/06/2013 3:40:20 PM PST by PghBaldy (12/14 - 930am -rampage begins... 12/15 - 1030am - Obama's advance team scouts photo-op locations.)
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To: combat_boots

The town seems to be either like the Stepford Wives one, or something out of a Stephen King movie. Not one of the parents wanted to view their children’s bodies? The one “father” was giddy and clearly acting. And there were photos of the child he “lost” (or a clone) with BO a few days later.


125 posted on 01/06/2013 4:02:22 PM PST by Borax Queen
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To: driftdiver
Its very difficult to drive anywhere and not come within 1000 feet of a school.

Yeah, really -- we live within 1/4 - 1/2 mile of two schools, I wonder what "near schools" means...

126 posted on 01/06/2013 4:05:41 PM PST by Borax Queen
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To: rickyrikardo

Nadil Hassan. The military was aware of his jihadist “behead the unbelievers” rhetoric, knew he was in communication with Al Qaeda, and just shrugged because of damned political correctness that had a pantywaist crying that it would be a BIGGER loss if diversity took a toll as a result of the Islamic terrorist carnage from the evil fifth column in our midst.

Rather than acknowledge a domestic “war crime” rampage on US soil on his watch, the Obama administration has thus far called it an unfortunate case of workplace related violence. Apparently having to serve along side lowly sub-muslim “kufir” was an insult to Mr. Hasan (who is STILL drawing his military salary and making a mockery of us all by refusing to shave and go to trial).


127 posted on 01/06/2013 5:16:22 PM PST by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: PghBaldy

Of course they have another agenda, isn’t it obvous, they want to Britainize us.


128 posted on 01/06/2013 6:06:50 PM PST by Typical_Whitey (The political mirage of something for nothing; has ruined many a nation.)
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To: kristinn
Lesson: "Don't waste a crisis" by waiting too long, so (a) another crisis replaces that one, (b) the public can learn some true facts, to replace earlier emotional irrationality.

Why doesn't the GOP learn from the lefties and start exploiting crises for their policies?

129 posted on 01/06/2013 6:29:08 PM PST by expat2
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To: OldPossum

Track those Hollywood wealthy urbanites with their personal private security entourages and their select auto fire M16s (and drones) instead average law abiding Americans.

We are developing a class system where political connections and money gets you private well armed security, and those without get a busy signal on 9-1-1.


130 posted on 01/06/2013 6:29:14 PM PST by apoliticalone
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To: Bryanw92

If you live very near a school, how can you legally take your gun to a shooting range?


131 posted on 01/06/2013 6:31:15 PM PST by expat2
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To: Bryanw92

If you live very near a school, how can you legally take your gun to a shooting range with this kind of cr*p?


132 posted on 01/06/2013 6:31:42 PM PST by expat2
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To: rolling_stone

I’m all for it, unfort. voting is not a Right. Though, such a proposal, if the GOPe had any balls (yeah, I’m dreaming), would make great TV.

I love the ‘The same people who can’t track 30M illegals are going to track 80M+ guns”...R.I.G.H.T.


133 posted on 01/06/2013 8:12:30 PM PST by i_robot73
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To: kristinn

The democrats want us disarmed so that

instead of the 2 .5 million home invasions it is 10 million home invasions per year in America. compare that to the less than 100 killed in mass shootings per year. the media uses the fluke, the statistically nonexistent to make it seem like it happens all the time . what happens is burglaries, rapes(many not with guns), assaults by the hundreds of thousands per year each

instead of 400,000 women raped per year it is million
s

instead of hundreds of thousands of children, raped ,murdered and tortured per year it is millions.

compare that to the non-existant less than 100 killed mass shootings

40,000 Americans die in car accidents etc

but the main reasons democrats want to take away our gun rights is to empower government, make us slaves of the government, take away our individual rights and so that we can’t defend against a tyrannical government.


134 posted on 01/06/2013 8:33:46 PM PST by Democrat_media (media makes mass shooters household names to create more & take our guns)
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To: kristinn
Our second amendment right was given to us as protection against a tyrannical government, and that is exactly what we are facing now. The ones taking away this right are the exact same people the right was given as defense against. Are we going to sat back and allow those tyrants within our unconstitutional government to continue infringing on this right that was given to deal solely with them without a real fight?

This is something we can't accept any longer. If we allow it to pass we have no hope whatsoever at salvaging anything good our nation was built on. We can't allow them to disarm us without losing absolutely everything, including the slim hope that still existed when it comes to salvaging anything decent this nation was built on. We can either fight back to regain our liberty or die trying, or we can shamefully surrender a right that was given to us as a last defense to violently restore our Constitution by removing a tyrannical government. We have already lost so much when it comes to our Constitutional rights, and this must be where we all draw a line in the sand and refuse to comply with any further infringement.

I'm not just talking about our unconstitutional tyrannical government invading our homes to commit murder against those fighting for what our founding fathers wanted them to fight for either. We cannot accept more unconstitutional rules and regulations against our right to defend ourselves from these tyrants. Those infringements must be resisted in some fashion just as passionately as a violent home invasion by this slime will be resisted by many. No more laws and mandates that just continue to weaken us, allowing them to decide when they invade our homes to finalize their disarming of the population. Everything is lost at that point.

The Second Amendment has taken a lot of damage by our failure to get the actual meaning of the right out there to the general public. Liberals have been allowed to intentionally spread ignorance when it comes to the reason we were given the right to bear arms. Even recently I found that many supporters of the second amendment are ignorant about it's meaning, including intelligent gun owners who support the Second Amendment adamantly, but have heard nothing but the the hunting/sport shooting, or home\self defense against criminals arguments with almost nothing about it's true meaning. People have to know that we have the right to bear arms to overthrow a tyrannical government.

I don't know how many Second Amendment supporters are in the unknown about the true intentions of the right to bare arms, but with the way liberals have created an almost total blackout when it comes to the true meaning behind the amendment I wouldn't be surprised if it was a greater percentage than many would think. A massive campaign to contact and inform those people through mailing campaigns, etc. as quickly as possible seems like a good start to informing those individuals, along with politicians at all levels of state and federal government who may not even understand it's true meaning. After that they should all be pressured to start using it when speaking on the issue.

Liberals know exactly what they are doing in repeating lies about it's meaning, and they simply ignore the actual meaning, which is how they have spread so much misinformation, and bypassed our Constitution on several issues through frivolous, and intentional lies repeated over decades. It's a waste to attempt informing them of anything.

A mass outreach to inform our active military, starting with combat units, along with all levels of law enforcement, on the Constitution in general, along with the actual meaning of the 2nd amendment is also something that should be started. There are a lot of extremely intelligent people out there who don't know these things. It's not an insult to those people who have been fed lies, and intentionally not taught these things. Informing those intelligent people out there who don't know some of these Constitutional issues could be our best hope. Those who hold power along with the intellect to easily comprehend these things they didn't know before are out there, and should be the target of an information campaign. It's a mistake to assume that intelligent people in positions of power in the military and law enforcement can't be uninformed on many Constitutional issues that could potentially change their response to certain orders.

I don't know if we have the time to inform many at this point, but it seems like getting the true meaning for why we were given our Second Amendment right should be a priority by Second Amendment groups, considering the liberal disinformation campaign has helped it infringe on parts of the Constitution that are as clear in meaning as anything can be. I don't know why we allowed the distortion of it's meaning to begin with, but it needs to be changed in a very short amount of time.

Conservatives across the political spectrum need to be able to work together on this issue, as well as other huge Constitutional issues we alone agree on. It's important to look at those issues and realize that some of the most imminent to our chaotic fall are huge issues we all agree on, and have to be solved first. We can work together to save our nation before going back to the big issues of disagreement within the Conservative spectrum, or we can refuse to work together, and watch every sides positions on those issues become meaningless as more imminent problems destroy us. We all lose if we can't work together for long enough on the huge issues we agree on to find a solution that will then bring the other huge decisive issues back to the forefront.

135 posted on 01/07/2013 12:28:08 AM PST by ThermoNuclearWarrior (www.OathKeepers.org/oath/)
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To: libstripper
there is enough lack of information, disinformation, incomplete information, and contradictions in intial reports to raise reasonable doubt about what happened at Sandy Hook.

With so much doubt involved it could even be possible that the Lanza's were captured by a few Obama black ops who killed the mom and took little crazy adam with them to be framed for the massacre.

In light of Fast and Furious, it is certainly more plausible than a bigfoot or UFO sighting.

It seems utterly implausible to me that a wimp like Adam Lanza could even bait a hook, much less execute those cute darling children , The whole evil thing is insane

136 posted on 01/07/2013 12:59:29 AM PST by KTM rider ( , you'd be lucky to get= $7....LOL !)
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To: Bryanw92; All
5 posted on Sat Jan 05 2013 17:54:32 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time) by Bryanw92: “An expensive psych eval (not covered by ObamaCare, of course) to buy and keep your guns.”

Actually, that could get fun. I'm not in favor of any sort of gun registration list (anyone should be able to own a gun except convicted felons and those judged mentally incompetent by a court) but apparently the liberals pushing this agenda haven't thought through things very far.

There are at least two people on Free Republic who hold doctoral degrees in psychology. My guess is there are quite a few more. Maybe we'll start seeing people advertising in NRA magazines and handing out cards at gun shows announcing that they are licensed clinical psychologists?

This isn't anything new. People looking to pop pills love doctor shopping. People who have had medical problems in the past and want to join the Army (or stay in after an injury) are not uncommonly referred to doctors who will give a "best case" rather than "worst case" evaluation of someone's fitness for duty.

I think there might be a lot of graduates from Rosemead (the psychology school of Biola University), Wheaton, and Southwestern Baptist's programs in clinical psychology who are gun owners and would be quite interested in a new category of clients, i.e., certifying people's fitness to own guns.

And that's just at the doctoral level. There are many evangelical seminaries which offer master's degree programs, often in marriage and family counseling, to help ministers be more effective in their pastoral work. My guess (without knowing) is that many Roman Catholic priests have comparable levels of training. It would not take much for many of those pastors to upgrade their master's degrees to a Ph.D. or Psy.D. to become a fully licensed clinical psychologist, and my guess is that most conservative states will be happy to let someone with an MA in clinical or counseling psychology conduct a mental health evaluation for gun owners if a mental health requirement is somehow successfully imposed by the federal government.

Again, I do not like this idea of mental evaluations at all. It is unconstitutional and needs to be fought. But if it passes, I do think it will backfire on the liberals.

137 posted on 01/07/2013 4:33:39 AM PST by darrellmaurina
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To: kristinn

Hey Republican Rinos and “Deal Makers” Remember this. “One can respect one’s enemy but never will they respect a traitor.”


138 posted on 01/07/2013 7:47:23 AM PST by johnny reb
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To: servantboy777

Yes you’re correct. When they catch you transporting semis is when they’ll get you.

It will be a 10 mandatory federal. They won’t come try and confiscate semis from homes. They’ll nail you transporting them.


139 posted on 01/08/2013 8:23:58 AM PST by Blackirish (Forward Comrades!!!!!!!!!)
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To: expat2

They will ban the manufacture sale and transport of all semis. 10 year manditoty federal. No attempt at confiscation. After around 25 years semis will be a politically incorrect collectors item with no ammo to be bought. Easy and painless. Time is on their side.


140 posted on 01/08/2013 8:30:24 AM PST by Blackirish (Forward Comrades!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Smokin' Joe

When they found out they could force the Catholic Church to buy condoms with the stroke of a pen and no one said a thing. ...you had to know guns were next.


141 posted on 01/08/2013 8:39:00 AM PST by Blackirish (Forward Comrades!!!!!!!!!)
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To: kristinn

My wife has a friend that owns a private security company is of high rank in the guard in one state. He told her that they (guard) were instructed to prepare a training program to prepare to confiscate private firearms. He passed this along as a warning. He also said he gave it its due attention and placed it in file 13.


142 posted on 01/08/2013 8:52:27 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: Blackirish

It’s possible, but 2 or 3 problems with that:.br>
1. That would be too slow for the impatient anti-gun activists,
2. It would be too extreme if they tried to ban any transport; they might try banning manufacture and sale,
tho that would clearly be unconstitutional.
3. This plan would be about as successful as the War on Drugs - which got nowhere in much longer than 25 years.


143 posted on 01/08/2013 2:41:25 PM PST by expat2
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