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Judge: Obama Admin Can Force Hobby Lobby to Obey HHS Mandate
Life News ^ | November 20, 2012 | Steven Ertelt

Posted on 11/20/2012 1:12:51 PM PST by NYer

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To: NYer

I think, if enough businesses shut down over Obamacare, at some point Government will cease to function, because it will have few sources of revenue. Sebilius and Obama are counting on these businesses to have concern for the people they employ and put up with their government abuse of power.

221 posted on 11/25/2012 7:28:45 AM PST by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, Democrats believe every day is April 15th.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Mrs. Don-o first let me say that it's been a real pleasure interacting with you because you do not engage in kneejerk reactive posts, though those are fun sometimes ;), and genuinely want to have a conversation with someone who doesn't see some things the same way you do even though I think we have the same destination in mind.

I always want to say I hope you had a lovely Thanksgiving holiday.

Now to your post!

Ksen, one think I'm frustrated about in this discussion is the tendency to narrow down to just an a/b choice (e.g. single-payer insurance vs. the status-quo employment-based set-up), when there must be more options than that.

The larger the cost sharing pool and the more real competition, the better the insurance deals would be. Up til now, we've relied almost entirely on employment for health coverage. That, coupled with a ban on interstate sale of insurance, has led to much smaller cost-sharing pools and very little actual competition, with one insurer often dominating entire regions. Fifty different sets of rules and regulations have historically governed insurance sales across the country, with consumers almost always bound to their employer’s choice for health coverage – and worse, should they lose their job, finding themselves suddenly without any insurance at all.

It's hard to defend such an ad hoc "system" with its innate inefficiencies and skyrocketing costs.

I think I can safely say that I completely agree with you. One thing I would add is that I believe when it comes to access to healthcare that the profit motive shouldn't be a factor in the decision making process or be so far removed from the decision making process that it might as well not exist at all.

The argument that no modern, industrialized nation should be without universal coverage is persuasive. But other Western nations have found ways to achieve it through far more decentralized means than Canadian-style single payer, or the expensive socialized medicine of the UK. The Dutch --- I've read --- have achieved universal coverage entirely through fierce competition between private insurers, and the Germans use a system of exchanges that allow German workers to move from job to job without losing insurance. The Swiss, who have made an art of subsidiarity, have achieved universal coverage through competing non-profit insurance plans.

Sure, even though I would prefer a system like the French have doesn't mean there aren't other good ideas out there. We are a country full of very bright people and given the amount of data available we should be able to take the best of what other countries have been doing and tailor a very good situation for ourselves.

Unfortunately, with respect to Obamacare, we didn't do that. We cobbled together a monstrosity. But even the "thing" we have now is better than what we had before and will hopefully move us along further to real healthcare reform, whatever form it takes.

222 posted on 11/26/2012 8:11:52 AM PST by ksen
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To: ksen
Thanks, and let me say the same to you: I enjoy a person who presents a genuine argument rather than a back-and-forth volley of cliches.

Since medical needs must be prioritized somewhere, by somebody, I think a single-payer system will necessarily politicize many care issues in a way that takes all choices away from intermediary institutions. (By "intermediary institutions" I mean the 10,000 for-profit, non-profit, professional, philanthropic, church-based, commercial, fraternal, charitable, private, state, county, local organizations that stand between me and Kathleen Sebelius.)

The State and its boards, panels and czars will make the judgments that supplant all other judgments.

A simple f'rinstance is the HHS decision to require the provision of abortion-producing drugs, contraceptivers, and sterilization procedures with no co-pays and no deductables. Who made the decision to prioritize this particular set of goods and services, but not albuterol nebulizers for COPD, or insulin for Diabetes 1, or metformin for Diabetes 2, or epi-pens for people with severe allergic reactions, or something really whiz-bang like hematopoietic stem cell transplantation for refractory rheumatoid arthritis, or RNY's for the malignantly obese, or... .. or... (I won't go catalog on you.)

The point is that some goods and services are prioritiized, and some are not. That's necessary, of course. But who decides that? At present, Kathleen Sebelius. I can do all the arm-waving I want, and I will never, in the years left to me, be able to influence these matters one iota according to my needs, values or ethics, or those of the people for whom I am partly or wholly responsible.

It's an unresponsive and irresponsible system. It will only become moreso, the more top-down, centralized and bureaucratic it becomes. Concerned about the 130,000 elderly Britons euthanized every year via the "Liverpool Care Path"? It' ll be 10x that in the USA, and without question they'll call it by something that contains the words "Compassion TM " and "Choice TM ".

223 posted on 11/26/2012 11:14:40 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you, may the Lord keep you, May He turn to you His countenance and give you peace)
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To: 185JHP; 230FMJ; AKA Elena; APatientMan; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
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It's amazing how many evil and stupid judges exist. I supposed causing businesses to close because they don't want to pay for contraception, abortion and probably down the road, sex change operations, is all double plus good to 0moslem and his gang.

224 posted on 11/27/2012 9:17:48 PM PST by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: Melinda in TN
Twenty-seven year old children? Doesn’t anybody grow up and reach adulthood anymore? They are supposed to be adults WAY before the age of 27 and if they are not it is the fault of the parents. They need to get out of mommy and daddy’s basement, get a job and pay for their own insurance.

Yeah, we live in a world of extended childhood. We need to teach responsibility and accountability to our kids at a much younger age as well as teach them to have good thought processes and then hope for the best. I admit, I live at home myself, I'm at early middle age, help take care of Mom and 2 cats but the point is that I work and put my shekels in the pot as well as do my share of the work. As long as they do that, living at home is not a problems but if they suck off Mom and/or Dad without giving anything back and acting like grown kids, then it is a problem. I know my grandfather, he had a full time job at 13 or 14 when he quit school around 1914 or so.
225 posted on 11/27/2012 9:46:23 PM PST by Nowhere Man (Whitey, I miss you so much. Take care, pretty girl. (4-15-2001 - 10-12-2012))
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To: bboop
Obama makes me vomit.

On election night when they called it for the O-Hole, Mom literally ran to the bathroom to throw up.
226 posted on 11/27/2012 9:50:06 PM PST by Nowhere Man (Whitey, I miss you so much. Take care, pretty girl. (4-15-2001 - 10-12-2012))
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To: WVNan
I think if I was in Hobby Lobby’s situation I would change employees by attrition. Let them go and rehire people over the age of 50. That would eliminate paying for any abortions for employees and most of their daughters. Older folks make good employees. Any heavy lifting needed could be done by temp workers.

I see your point. If it was up to me, I'd let go anybody that voted for Obama and hire only conservatives and libertarians. Those people chose Barabbas Obama, let Barabbas support them.
227 posted on 11/27/2012 9:59:12 PM PST by Nowhere Man (Whitey, I miss you so much. Take care, pretty girl. (4-15-2001 - 10-12-2012))
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To: ksen

Your counter point would work if we lived in a Society that dictated who you were “required” to work for.

You know, kind of like North Korea. Don’t comply, let them Mortar you to death.

As my Father once told me, you can complain about a job the day they point a gun to your head and make you take it.

228 posted on 11/27/2012 10:24:36 PM PST by Kickass Conservative (Looks like my Father was wrong, somebody else DOES owe you a living...)
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To: Nowhere Man

I can understand your situation. It’s wonderful that you take care of your parents but you aren’t forcing them to take care of you. Big difference!

My baby brother was VERY spoiled. He finally got married and in no time he was moving into his old room each time he and his bride had a fight. It got so bad that Mom and Dad sold the big house and bought a small two bedroom home. LOL That put an end to that! Now my parents are getting pretty old and my older single brother stays with them on occasion to take care of them. That is how it should be.

229 posted on 12/01/2012 5:38:05 PM PST by Melinda in TN
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