Easy fix eludes power outage problems in US

The Capital ^ | By Chris Khan and Eric Tucker

[Paladin2]

I got my neighbors together a decade ago to complain to the PSC and get our block's ~50 year old high voltage wires, pole cross ties and insulators replaced and the whole thing given a prune job.

The extension to another block where folks didn't want the tree trimming got a circuit breaker so they don't bring us down anymore.

It's been a definite improvement in reliability.

Buying a sine wave inverter to run off a bank of 12volt batteries and hooking up to the cars for recharging takes care providing minimal 120v backup (has to be manually rigged).

[SampleMan]

which is why NONE EXIST, even for short distances.

Where do they hide all of the electrical poles in Manhattan, and every other downtown city area?

[BobL]

“Where do they hide all of the electrical poles in Manhattan, and every other downtown city area? “

Those are medium voltage lines. The substations are outside of the cities, for obvious reasons.

[BobL]

“Electric power can also be transmitted by underground power cables instead of overhead power lines. Underground cables take up less right-of-way than overhead lines, have lower visibility, and are less affected by bad weather. However, costs of insulated cable and excavation are much higher than overhead construction. Faults in buried transmission lines take longer to locate and repair. Underground lines are strictly limited by their thermal capacity, which permits less overload or re-rating than overhead lines. Long underground cables have significant capacitance, which may reduce their ability to provide useful power to loads.”

This is from Wikipedia.

[BobL]

“Could people have paid for a swap that wasn’t?”

Did your rates double in the past few years? If not, don’t worry, you haven’t paid for it (yet).

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

PING!

[uncommonsense]

I saw your comment and had a hard time understanding your point.

I've traveled over 2 million miles domestically and helped to "deregulate" the 8th largest utility company in the US.

Rural areas, weather new or old, are above ground. Densely populated metro centers have been buried for many decades using large, multipurpose utility conduits. This is the best way and allows for hardening and future upgrades. It can work for areas with low water tables (we’ve had intercontinental communication cables since 1851), but less so for mountainous regions.

[Right Wing Assault]

$15 million per mile of buried line

Ah! Time for another $2 trillion obama campaign stimulus to get the economy rolling for the unions.

[cripplecreek]

They’re putting new poles in here now.

When I put my split rail fence in I had to put a rock on top of each one to keep them from bobbing up in the hole while I put concrete in.

[AndyJackson]

$15 million per mile of buried line - and that gets passed onto consumers

$3000 per foot - ah the joy of monopolies that can just pass their costs on to their customers, unquestioned.

Of course here in DC $3000 per foot does not go far. First there is the pickup truck and couple of guys to operate the rented pavement cutter, and then the guy to operate the backhoe. But then there are all the supervisors and the guys who stand in the road with the stop / go signs and thier deputies, and reliefs and supervisors.

A cynic might also factor in bribes to the city council not to ask too many hard questions, but I think that is a totally over the top and unfair slander against citizens working for the good of the taxpayer like DC Councilmember Marion Barry.

[AndyJackson]

$15 million per mile of buried line - and that gets passed onto consumers

$3000 per foot - ah the joy of monopolies that can just pass their costs on to their customers, unquestioned.

Of course here in DC $3000 per foot does not go far. First there is the pickup truck and couple of guys to operate the rented pavement cutter, and then the guy to operate the backhoe. But then there are all the supervisors and the guys who stand in the road with the stop / go signs and thier deputies, and reliefs and supervisors.

A cynic might also factor in bribes to the city council not to ask too many hard questions, but I think that is a totally over the top and unfair slander against citizens working for the good of the taxpayer like DC Councilmember Marion Barry.

[Donald Rumsfeld Fan]

I’m an electrical engineer and to me, our above ground power grid is really a bad thing, almost stupid. And did I mention really UGLY.

The big push for underground distribution lines in Calif began in the 60s. Older communities are still above ground. I live in Anaheim Hills, a planned community, we are 100% underground. Malibu on the otherhand is 100% above ground. PCH Malibu has all overhead lines and it's ugly as hell.

There are no problems with earthquake damage to underground. Flooding can cause problems at transformer vaults however. Had to go out in big stormy nights to pump water out of vaults. The overhead crew had a much tougher time.

malibu

[SampleMan]

Really? I find it hard to believe that all of Manhattan is run off of medium voltage lines. If true they would have to run a lot of them into the city.

That said, the high voltage lines on the giant towers aren’t generally where the power outages occur, as the trees are below those lines and can’t fall on them.

[the_daug]

Those overhead transmission lines will be cheaper. The ambient cooling of the air is verses building tunnels with cooling systems to string transmission lines.

[Donald Rumsfeld Fan]

Underground lines crap out too.

More reliable than overhead.

Cables run thru PVC. Conductors are sealed in lead casing and are water tight. Biggest problems are at the underground connection vaults where they are connected and routed. Underground Vault flooding is a headache.

[BobL]

“That said, the high voltage lines on the giant towers aren’t generally where the power outages occur, as the trees are below those lines and can’t fall on them.”

You’re right. So the question there becomes whether people are willing to pay TWICE what they pay now (for at least 5 years, if not 10 years) to get their existing lines buried, as well as the lower voltage feeders to their neighborhood.

I suspect that if you had that referendum, you’d realize why so many overhead lines remain. They may be ugly (to some of us), but burying them is neither free, nor cheap.

[Donald Rumsfeld Fan]

Those overhead transmission lines will be cheaper. The ambient cooling of the air is verses building tunnels with cooling systems to string transmission lines.

Most all high voltage transmission lines are overhead. It's the low voltage distribution lines, 12kv or less, that go underground.

[Paladin2]

"It would be best to shut of the power to D.C. completely March-October. "

That's what used to happen.

[sefarkas]

Thanx for using the proper vocabulary. Transmission is high-voltage, and distribution is low voltage. DC area has a load imbalance, generation relatively far from load which makes the power grid less reliable than it could be. See map

[lightman]

Buying a sine wave inverter to run off a bank of 12volt batteries and hooking up to the cars for recharging takes care providing minimal 120v backup (has to be manually rigged). www.generac.com Got a 15,000kw unit after the Isabel outage, runs on propane wih an automatic transfer switch.

Downside is that at the current price of propane power outages cost me $5.00/hour.