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Franklin Fears Tyranny, Hopes For Honorable Government
Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787 Reported by James Madison | June 2, 1787 | Dr. Benjamin Franklin

Posted on 11/20/2011 4:00:18 PM PST by dagogo redux

On Saturday, June 2nd, in Committee of the Whole, as James Madison recorded in his Notes of the Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787, the Founders were continuing the previous day’s debate regarding a proposed plan for the Executive branch, its constitution, relation to the Legislative branch, method of election, funding, and such.

Doctor Benjamin Franklin asked permission from the Committee to read a prepared speech, “being very sensitive to the effect of age on his memory.” Below, without too much editing except to break the paragraphs into smaller segments for easier internet reading, is his speech:

It is with reluctance that I rise to express a disapprobation of any one article of the plan for which we are so much obliged to the honorable gentleman who laid it before us. From its first reading I have borne a good will to it, and in general wished it success.

In this particular of salaries to the executive branch I happen to differ; and as my opinion may appear new and chimerical, it is only from a persuasion that it is right, and from a sense of duty that I hazard it. The committee will judge of my reasons when they have heard them, and their judgement may possibly change mine. - I think I see inconveniences in the appointment of salaries; I see none in refusing them, but on the contrary, great advantages.

Sir, there are two passions which have a powerful influence on the affairs of men.These are ambition and avarice; the love of power, and the love of money. Separately each of these has great force in prompting men to action; but when united in view of the same object they have in many minds the most violent effects. Place before the eyes of such men, a post of honour that shall be at the same time a place of profit, and they will move heaven and earth to obtain it.

The vast number of such places it is that renders the British government so tempestuous. The struggles for them are the true sources of all those factions which are perpetually dividing the Nation, distracting its Councils, hurrying sometimes into fruitless and mischievous wars, and often compelling a submission to dishonorable terms of peace.

And what kind are the men that will strive for this profitable pre-eminence, through all the bustle of cabal, the heat of contention, the infinite mutual abuse of parties, tearing to pieces the best of characters? It will not be the wise and moderate; the lovers of peace and good, the men fittest for the trust. It will be the bold and the violent, the men of strong passions and indefatigable activity in their selfish pursuits. These will thrust themselves into your Government and be your rulers. - And these too will be mistaken in the expected happiness of their situation: For their vanquished competitors of the same spirit, and from the same motives will perpetually be endeavouring to distress their administration, thwart their measures, and render them odious to the people.

Besides these evils, Sir, tho’ we may set out in the beginning with moderate salaries, we shall find that such will not be of long continuance. Reasons will never be wanting for proposed augmentations. And there will always be a party for giving more to the rulers, that the rulers may be able in return to give more to them. - Hence as all history informs us, there has been in every State & Kingdom a constant kind of warfare between the governing & and the governed: one striving to obtain more for its support, and the other to pay less. And this has alone occasioned great convulsions, actual civil wars, ending either in dethroning of Princes, or enslaving of the people. Generally indeed the ruling power carries its point, the revenues of princes constantly increasing, and we see that they are never satisfied, but always in want of more. The more the people are discontented with the oppression of taxes;the greater the need the prince has of money to distribute among his partizans and pay the troops that are to suppress all resistance, and enable him to plunder at pleasure. There is scarce a king in a hundred who would not, if he could, follow the example of Pharoah, get first all the peoples money, then all their lands, and then make them and their children servants for ever.

It will be said that we don’t propose to establish Kings. I know it. But there is a natural inclination in mankind to Kingly Government. It sometimes relieves them from Aristocratic domination. They had rather have one tyrant than five hundred. It gives more the appearance of equality among Citizens, and that they like. I am apprehensive therefore, perhaps too apprehensive, that the government of these States, may in future times, end in Monarchy. But this Catastrophe I think may be long delayed, if in our proposed system we do not sow the seeds of contention, faction & tumult, by making our posts of honor, places of profit. If we don’t, I fear that tho’ we do employ at first a number, and not a single person, the number will in time be set aside, it will only nourish the foetus of a King, as the honorable gentleman from Virginia very aptly expressed it, and a King will the sooner be set over us.

It may be imagined by some that this is an Utopian Idea, and that we can never find men to serve us in the Executive department, without paying them well for their services. I conceive this to be a mistake. Some existing facts present themselves to me, which incline me to a contrary opinion.

The High Sheriff of a County in England is an honorable office, but it is not a profitable one. It is rather expensive, and therefore not sought for. But yet, it is executed and well executed, and usually by some of the principle Gentlemen of the County.

In France, the office of Counsellor or member of their Judiciary Parliaments is more honorable. It is therefore purchased at a high price: There are indeed fees on the law proceedings, which are divided amongst them, but these fees do not amount to more than three per Cent on the sum paid for the place. Therefore as legal interest is there at five per Cent they in fact pay two per Cent for being allowed to do the judiciary business of the NAtion, which is at the same time entirely exempt from the burden of paying them any salaries for their services.

I do not however mean to recommend this as an eligible mode for our Judiciary department. I only bring this instance to shew that the pleasure of doing good & serving their country and the respect such conduct entitles them to, are sufficient motives with some minds to give up a great portion of their time to the public, without the mean inducement of pecuniary satisfaction.

Another instance is that of a respectable Society who have made the experiment, and practiced it with success more than an hundred years. I mean the Quakers. It is an established rule with them, that they are not to go to law; but in their controversies they must apply to their monthly, quarterly and yearly meetings. Committees of these sit with patience to hear the parties, and spend much time in composing their differences. In doing this, they are supported by a sense of duty, and the respect paid to usefulness. It is honorable to be so employed, but it was never made profitable by salaries, fees, or perquisites. And indeed in all cases of public service the less the profit the greater the honor.

To bring the matter nearer home, have we not seen, the greatest and most important of our offices, that of General of our armies executed for eight years together without the smallest salary, by a Patriot whom I will not now offend by any other praise [Washington was presiding over the Convention]; and this through fatigues and distresses in common with the other brave men his military friends & Companions, and the constant anxieties peculiar to this station? And shall we doubt finding three or four men in all the United States, with public spirit enough to bear sitting in peaceful Council for perhaps an equal term, merely to preside over our civil concerns, and see that our laws are duly executed. Sir, I have a better opinion of our Country. I think we shall never be without a sufficient number of wise and good men to undertake and execute well and faithfully the office in question.

Sir, The saving of the salaries that may at first be proposed is not an object with me. The subsequent mischiefs of proposing them is what I apprehend. And therefore it is, that I must be content with the satisfaction of having delivered my opinion frankly and done my duty.

TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: bloggersandpersonal; constitution; executive; honor
The news is a little old, perhaps, but still instructive.
1 posted on 11/20/2011 4:00:22 PM PST by dagogo redux
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To: dagogo redux

There’s old... and there’s timeless.

2 posted on 11/20/2011 4:01:52 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Tijeras_Slim

I am convinced that the nature of humans living in 4000bc were no different than today.

3 posted on 11/20/2011 4:11:19 PM PST by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: All

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4 posted on 11/20/2011 4:12:00 PM PST by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: dagogo redux
Yes, there is much to learn from the debates at the Constitutional Convention.
5 posted on 11/20/2011 4:14:05 PM PST by Jacquerie (Think outside the pizza box.)
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To: gorush

Agree. Because human nature is static, our Constitution is timeless.

6 posted on 11/20/2011 4:17:29 PM PST by Jacquerie (Think outside the pizza box.)
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To: gorush

There is no doubt. As Franklin says in this speech, men are animated by avarice and ambition.

7 posted on 11/20/2011 4:45:47 PM PST by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: dagogo redux

GRRRRREAT post, dagogo redux. Who was this Dr.?

Legislatures (state and federal) could be part-time jobs with 1/10th pay, NO retirement, NO insurance, NO benefits and NO perks. These POS politicians can get a full time job doing something productive not progressive.
Their part-time job could be spent DEFUNDING/DISMANTLING socialist collectives, foreign and domestic (our government in particular).

—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Alter it.

8 posted on 11/20/2011 5:10:18 PM PST by PGalt
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To: gorush

Something we have to relearn every 20-30 years.

9 posted on 11/20/2011 6:03:16 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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10 posted on 11/20/2011 6:05:52 PM PST by RedMDer (Forward With Confidence!)
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