Posted on 04/09/2010 4:03:27 AM PDT by Yo-Yo
I agree
You really can’t autorotate the CH-46 either. Attempting to autorotate one usually results in a crash and an airframe loss.
Something that’s a bit scary to think about is that the Osprey, to this date in its development, has still killed fewer people than the aircraft it is replacing, the CH-46, did at this point in its.
Also scary is that one reason the Marines stayed with this aircraft and fought to keep it is because the CH-46 is *worse*.
Also, if the Osprey is moving forward, it can actually glide.
The CH-46 isn’t known as a Marine killer for no reason, you know.
It does seem like this plane would have several single-point failure modes. However this is the first crash of an Osprey in a combat theater that I’ve heard about so its operational track record may not be too bad.
As a former phrog (CH-46) pilot I would highly prefer going to war in a V-22 instead of a 46. The 46 was a good solid platform for it’s day, that day has passed. It is getting tired. The V-22 has had some challenges and will be faced with more to come. Let’s wait for the MIR to be released before we all jump to conclusions. As an aside one of the guys I knew from a sister squadron was killed during the test flight phase of its development. May all those who go into harms way be blessed with a devine presence and return home to their loved ones.
“I’m a pilot and this thing scares me...all respect to the fallen...”
I agree. As a commercial helicopter pilot it has concerned me from the start that the Ospey is unable to autorotate in the case of an emergency.
I’m amazed at the willingness for so many to confidently draw conclusions and construct detailed arguments...based on incorrect facts!
I have flown the Osprey for over three years and can tell you that most of what is said about the V-22 in the media is based on information that is incomplete, outdated, or flat out wrong. As with any technical field, non-professionals (i.e. journalists) try to form an opinion based on hearsay and partial truths. The result is a gross over-simplication of a complex issue that further perpetuates myths and misunderstandings. In the case of the V-22, there is still this idea floating around that the aircraft is unproven, that it still in a trial period or undergoing testing. The aircraft has now been operational for over three years and done well in three combat deployments to Iraq, a sea-based deployment on ship, and now in Afghanistan with both the USAF and the USMC. The Osprey is here to stay!
I’ll address one common myth here: “The Osprey is unsafe because it can’t autorotate.” This is a biased criticism taken from the world of helicopters (with which I am familiar as a former CH-46 pilot). The V-22 is not a helicopter; it is a tiltrotor. A tiltrotor is a new class of aircraft that shares characteristics of both airplanes and helicopters. While the V-22 does not autorotate well, it can glide in APLN mode, which is where it spends the majority of its time. Can an airliner autorotate? Most aircraft have an “avoid area”, a region of flight during which total power loss would be unrecoverable. An airliner (or even a helicopter) losing both engines at low altitude/airspeed would not be recoverable in many situations either.
The bottom line is, we all put our faith in probability. The probability of two modern jet-turbine engines failing simultaneously is remote. The likely causes of such a rare situation are fuel contamination (extremely rare) or starvation (pilot error), a flock of huge birds, or enemy action. In fact, the V-22 is safer from the later two than conventional helos due to the engines being much further apart.
Those who make sweeping statements like “the Osprey is a deathtrap” or “it’s too complex” simply don’t understand the aircraft, it’s mission, or it’s history. The fact is, while the V-22 program has had its share of growing pains, it offers a unique and amazing capability that is transforming the assault support/tranport role for the U.S. Marine Corps and Air Force.
Let our thoughts and prayers be with those who paid the ultimate sacrifice in our nation’s defense, and their families.
“Can an airliner autorotate?”
Not without a rotor system! It is very likely that it would glide much better than an Osprey though, due to lighter wing loading and less aerodynamic drag.
“Most aircraft have an “avoid area”, a region of flight during which total power loss would be unrecoverable...”
In the helicopter world, the “avoid area” is known as the shaded portion of the height velocity diagram. Would you happen to know an internet source for the height velocity diagram for the V22 in helicopter mode?
Thank you!
Any of them Osprey pilots? I know one Osprey pilot and he says he’s fine with flying it.
Nope, but they are very experienced pilots in fighter and heavy aircraft and they have plenty of combat hours among them. None were helicopter pilots, however.
One pilot said he did not like the idea that it could not land at all as a conventional aircraft. As it was explained to me, if for some reason the wing/propellers could not be returned to the hover position, the aircraft would have to be crash landed (props would hit the ground before the landing gear) or the crew would have to bail out.
True, most airplanes (especially jets) have better glide performance than the V-22. The Osprey is a compromise in design, so inherent to this design are the strengths and weaknesses of both a “pure” airplane and a “pure” helicopter. This is what gives the Osprey its unique flexibility.
Flight manuals for current military aircraft aren’t published on the Internet for security reasons. I checked in my NATOPS flight manual and there is no standard Height-Velocity diagram for the V-22. There are separate height-velocity diagrams for single and dual-engine failure that illustrate what airspeeds/altitudes are survivable should these failures occur. You have to remember that performance data for this aircraft is much more complex due to the nearly infinite number of configurations (each nacelle setting drastically changes the aerodynamic properties).
I can tell you that the aircraft performs quite well with a single-engine failure, especially in airplane mode. Each engine is sufficiently powerful (6150 SHP) to allow the aircraft to fly through most of the flight envelope independently. The biggest challenge would be a loss of power in helicopter mode at high gross weight/high density altitude (just like any other rotary-wing aircraft). If you have a runway available, a run-on landing is your best option in most emergency situations. These are performed at no lower than 75 nacelle with forward airspeed such that the wing provides some lift.
I’m an Osprey pilot and I’m fine with it...
The aircraft can be landed safely with the nacelles and proprotors as low as 45 degrees, although this is not normally done. In the one instance I’m aware of in which the nacelles jammed at 45 degrees, the pilot was able to land with no damage to the aircraft. The nacelles have never jammed all the way down in airplane mode (knock on wood). Problems moving the nacelles are extremely rare as each conversion actuator is triple redundant (powered by three hydraulic systems and three flight control computers). In the event that a crash landing had to made in airplane mode, the blades are designed to “broomstraw” on impact to reduce the risk of further damage and injury.
As a counterpoint: If you looking for glaring examples of a single point of failure in an aircraft design, try the tail rotor on the traditional helicopter.
Incorrect. The facts refute you. The CH-46 suffered 44 CLASS A mishaps in its first five years of operational use in the FMF. A V-22 has never broken up in flight unlike a CH-46 - re: Station 410 failures.
You're entitled to your own crappy opinion but not your own set of facts.
Not according to the people who, unlike you, actually fly it.
Neither can most helicopters. Most auto-rotation attempts in rotary winged platforms result in Class A mishaps. In fighting OIF and OEF the United States has lost nearly 400 helicopters which failed to successfully autorotate.
and if one of those rotors enters ring vortex state the bird will flip over and auger in.
The V-22 is much less susceptible to VRS than any rotary winged platform in the inventory. If encountered, recovery from VRS in a V-22 is achieved much easier and much faster than in a rotary winged platform.
Do you know John Sarno?
We used to have the Marines fly out to do their carrier quals. It was a hoot!
I shudder to think of what the Osprey’s L/D must be in glider mode but it is better than nothing! Congrats on being a V-22 pilot and prayers offered for your safety as well. The best I might ever do is an Osprey R/C model some day.
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