Posted on 12/31/2009 4:37:24 PM PST by TheConservativeCitizen
why don't you excerpt the parts that condemn statism as being contrary to human dignity, and that endorse free markets as being a natural expression of liberty?
Because they don't exist, that's why.
Does the world really need a freaking "declaration" that Catholics are supposed to have a conscience and oppose abortion?
Hello?
A CALL OF CHRISTIAN CONSCIENCE
Christians, when they have lived up to the highest ideals of their faith, have defended the weak and vulnerable and worked tirelessly to protect and strengthen vital institutions of civil society, beginning with the family.
We are Orthodox, Catholic, and evangelical Christians who have united at this hour to reaffirm fundamental truths about justice and the common good, and to call upon our fellow citizens, believers and non-believers alike, to join us in defending them. These truths are:
Inasmuch as these truths are foundational to human dignity and the well-being of society, they are inviolable and non-negotiable. Because they are increasingly under assault from powerful forces in our culture, we are compelled today to speak out forcefully in their defense, and to commit ourselves to honoring them fully no matter what pressures are brought upon us and our institutions to abandon or compromise them. We make this commitment not as partisans of any political group but as followers of Jesus Christ, the crucified and risen Lord, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
By way of analogy, if it were a group of Christians involved in some other particular area--- e.g., say Christian realtors --- you wouldn't expect them to make a comprehensive creedal or evangelization statement, but to focus on their obligations as realtors. They might talk about truth in advertising, honesty in business transactions, abstaining from shady dealing and exposing fraud when they have knowledge of it, etc.
I, for one, appreciate statements which clarify my civil obligation in the public square. I feel the urgency of building a decent culture for kids (and someday grandkids) to grow up in, one which isn't so sin-sponsoring and death-dealing, so sickeningly corrupt.
The reason they say "ignorance is bliss," I think, is because the ignorant person doesn't know how igorant he is and is therefore spared of the humiliation.
This looks like one of those MacArthur cat fights starting and I am going to back away after saying this.
Paul was an unusual case among Christians. Jesus literally flashed in and grabbed him. He took the hook bare, shoot, he was literally thrust upon it, while about quite a different business.
Many people who become Christians go through an acquaintance period with a gospel preaching church, attracted initially by some related quality, before they become believers. If they were asked after believing what brought them there, God would by all means get the glory, but they would speak of the love, kindness, generosity, etc. of the Christians they met and perhaps personally brought them to church.
There's nothing about the Gospel of Salvation in the Free Republic mission statement, either. But I think we all --- rightly ---- judge that we can associate with Free Republic.
I am a little confused.
You seem to be saying that “the lake of fire” and Jesus are specifically connected. So far as I can determine “lake of fire” is taken from Revelations which was written well after Jesus’ death.
This group is not a church, properly so called, and is not offering a creed or a worship program or comprehensive theological statement. It is a group of Christians engaged in carrying out their obligations in a particular arena of action: as citizens and opinion-leaders in the public square.
Let's take that statement of theirs and look it over... and see how "political" it is (in terms of the public square) and how "theological" it is...
A CALL OF CHRISTIAN CONSCIENCE
Christians, when they have lived up to the highest ideals of their faith, have defended the weak and vulnerable and worked tirelessly to protect and strengthen vital institutions of civil society, beginning with the family.
We are Orthodox, Catholic, and evangelical Christians who have united at this hour to reaffirm fundamental truths about justice and the common good, and to call upon our fellow citizens, believers and non-believers alike, to join us in defending them. These truths are:
Inasmuch as these truths are foundational to human dignity and the well-being of society, they are inviolable and non-negotiable. Because they are increasingly under assault from powerful forces in our culture, we are compelled today to speak out forcefully in their defense, and to commit ourselves to honoring them fully no matter what pressures are brought upon us and our institutions to abandon or compromise them. We make this commitment not as partisans of any political group but as followers of Jesus Christ, the crucified and risen Lord, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
First of all, we have the "theological" or "religious aspect" of it to consider... just going down the statement and picking out the Christian, church, or church organization words and/or Christianity words and/or Christian ideas and philosophies...
Now, after looking down the list of words used in that very short statement that they gave, I see religious institutions, I see Christianity, I see Jesus Christ, I see Christian principles and so on -- all invoked in that statement. It appears theological and "Christian" to me... from the "wording"...
AND THUS -- after all that "religious talk" -- I see nothing there about the Salvation that is paramount and that is of first importance -- even before anything that is mentioned in this statement.
They've given all the "theological baggage" and left off the main message.... LOL...
There's nothing about the Gospel of Salvation in the Free Republic mission statement, either. But I think we all --- rightly ---- judge that we can associate with Free Republic.
And..., I'm not signing any joint statements with Free Republic either.... I'm just posting and making my comments... LOL...
And likewise, I'll continue -- in society, and with my representatives, to make my statements as I see fit to them -- and also I'll be free, as my own "representative" (i.e., representing myself) to give the Gospel to all that I do. :-)
So, as long as you don't expect me to sign a joint statement with Free Republic, I guess we're just hunky-dory...
Did Jesus go up to people and say: “Do you acknowledge me as the Son of God?” and refuse to do anything unless they confessed that? No. He went out and preached and healed, knowing that the miraculous works would bring people around. I don’t think any significant Christian denomination argues for works alone. Do you think there is no difference between Mother Theresa and Barack Obama? Between the Pope and Mohammed? Jesus’ last wishes were that his disciples love one another. He taught that anyone who hurt “these little ones” was evil. Can’t all Christians get together even on that? Who is asking John MacArthur to give up his beliefs just to sign that statement?
The idea of a burning hell and a glorious heaven was not invented with the teachings of Christ. It existed in Judaism before His birth.
That said, a “certain preacher” (mmmf mmmf) especially in his younger years has been especially bent on using hell as a “push.” Sometimes that’s God’s plan — but not always! Sometimes it’s not clear to a new Christian the logical end state of they were saved from, until the salvation actually happens.
The Messiah of Israel “after He destroys, by his own hand, the present and evil one-world government that we see forming right now.”
You quote Isiah: “His government and peace... to order and establish it with judgement and justice”
This leads me to the question: how do we know that the Messiah, the Prince of Peace, will not do as they have done in South Africa. There they established reconcilliation commissions to get all sides of the struggle talking together and creating true peace where there had been great ugliness.
Your interpretation of Jesus sounds like the Old Testament God of anger, not the New Testament God of love and peace.
You seem to be saying that “the lake of fire” and Jesus are specifically connected. So far as I can determine “lake of fire” is taken from Revelations which was written well after Jesus’ death.
The book of Revelation is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" -- the message given to the Apostle John, by Jesus Christ, to write down...
Revelation Chapter 1 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
See the very last words in the Bible, at the end of Revelation.
Revelation Chapter 22 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
There is no rational argument to be made against this declaration. None. zip. Nada. Trying to create an argument against this declaration requires one immerse themselves in disordered thinking to the point they themselves are disordered.
This declaration is an awesome thing & I will there were commercials running in prime time all over the nation about this important resolution agains the culture of death.
This leads me to the question: how do we know that the Messiah, the Prince of Peace, will not do as they have done in South Africa. There they established reconcilliation commissions to get all sides of the struggle talking together and creating true peace where there had been great ugliness.
One example shows that Jesus, the Messiah of Israel dispenses with all of those enemies right at the beginning of His reign and eliminates everyone that He sees as not deserving of life in His Kingdom that He is setting up on this earth, ruling and reigning from Jerusalem...
Matthew Chapter 25 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
And also note that Jesus said the following in that He did not come to bring peace (the first time when He came) but to bring division.
Matthew Chapter 10 32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
And a Happy New Year!
Did Jesus go up to people and say: “Do you acknowledge me as the Son of God?” and refuse to do anything unless they confessed that? No. He went out and preached and healed, knowing that the miraculous works would bring people around.
Jesus said several times that He didn't because His time was not yet. Jesus concealed it until it was His time to do so, according to God's will, and He did on His entry into Jerusalem.
All the while, even leading up to that, He never denied that He and the Father were one and that He had always existed, even as long as the forefathers of Israel, which caused people to want to stone Jesus for making Himself equal to God.
Now, once He had accomplished what God had sent Him to do, His instructions then were to spread the Gospel message everywhere, to everyone, all over the world -- and that was the prime job of all Christians to do...
Matthew Chapter 28 16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
So, our time now is to spread the Gospel message of Salvation from Jesus, the Messiah of Isael and from no one else -- as the primary message for the entire world.
Ut sounds like from Matthew 25:40 that Jesus will judge men by their good works. And from 41 on he describes the lack of good works that he will not forgive, not feeding, clothing, or providing housing to those in need. So if a worldly government does these things will he then condemn it, or merely say, OK over to the right hand, I’m taking over now.
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