Posted on 10/24/2009 12:54:19 AM PDT by The Magical Mischief Tour
CLARKSVILLE, Tenn. -- Cameras don't lie, so how do you argue with a picture that shows you breaking the law? A Clarksville attorney is going to try.
A Redflex camera caught Mark Burton running a red light, and for the first time in middle Tennessee, the issue is being taken to court.
At around 5:30 a.m., Burton ran a red light and a Redflex camera caught him the act. Still, Burton's attorney Greg D. Smith said there's no way his client should receive a ticket. "If you're on the road in the middle of the night, and you're not hurting anybody, you shouldn't have to worry about a hidden camera taking your picture," said Smith.
For the first time in middle Tennessee, Smith and his client are taking the issue to court. Smith argues the Redflex cameras are unconstitutional. "Under the confrontation clause, you should be able to address who's accusing you, in this case its a camera, and ask, 'Why are you giving me this ticket?' You can't ask questions to a piece of metal," said Smith.
Smith also said the cameras violate Tennessee's open courts law because every time you get a ticket you owe $50. But if you choose to take it to court, you have to shell out an extra $86.
"The system suddenly becomes a barter system of economically, 'Is it cheaper for me to just forget about it or to take my chances in court?'" said Smith.
Then there's the due process clause of innocent until proven guilty. Smith said when it comes to Redflex red-light cameras, that's simply not the case. "If the camera says you're guilty, suddenly the burden is shifted to proving you're not," said Smith.
Bottom line, Smith thinks the cameras are a violation of privacy. He hopes to take the case all the way to the Supreme court.
Will he win?
Redflex reps believe his chances are slim. In a statement Redflex said, “the cameras are constitutional as ruled by numerous courts." The city's attorney said the city of Clarksville stands by the cameras.
So, basically in Tennessee they punish you for wanting your day in court, ain't that something...
One way to beat a red-light camera: Don’t enter the intersection on a yellow light.
One way to beat a red-light camera: Don’t enter the intersection on a yellow light. I know someone who had to pay $300.
Some town here in Tennessee is now experimenting with camera/video/radar units which clock your speed then mail you a speeding ticket
They have done it in Los Angeles and in West Hollywood.
Naples, FL has this red light system. I have heard stories on the local news that people were getting tickets for turning right on red.
It's time that they too caught up with reality and put safety above revenue enhancement.
"After a number of independent studies began to show that the devices fail to deliver the promised safety benefit, some states moved to ban their use (view studies)."
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2690.asp
I got a ticket from a red-light camera in my home city and I went back and timed the length of the yellow light at that camera and then timed several other yellow lights not connected to red-light cameras. The results were not surprising given the way cops cheat with these cameras and radar guns: the yellow light at the intersection with the red-light camera was 3 seconds long, but all the other yellow lights were 4 seconds long. I ran the red light by 0.6 seconds, so I would have been OK if it had been a standard yellow light. The same company that installed the red-light cameras was caught using short yellow lights in another city near me.
Mr. Burton, if you’re reading this thread, the first thing you should do is go back and time the length of the yellow light at that intersection with a stop watch. Then time several other yellow lights at intersections without a camera in the same city, and see if the yellow light at the intersection with the camera is shorter than the other yellow lights. This is apparently a scam frequently used by these red-light camera companies to generate more tickets, and I’ve heard some of these companies get a payment for each ticket they generate. So they have an incentive to scam the public by setting the yellow lights up with a shorter time than the usual time.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/05/the-traffic-camera-scam/
Increasing the length of the yellow light by one second reduces these violations by up to 80%. But some municipalities choose to reduce yellow-light length, to increase revenue.
That causes its own problems.
From here:
In 2007, the Virginia Department of Transportation documented a 29 percent increase in accidents and a 19 percent increase in injuries at red-light camera intersections. This is because drivers slam on their brakes or speed up to try to avoid getting a camera ticket, thus causing more accidents.
Yes, and you could achieve this by slamming on your brakes and hope that the driver in the vehicle behind you, who thought that you were going to proceed through the yellow light, doesn't rear end you.
I avoid those red-light cameras near me by taking new routes, some of which are faster than the old routes I used. When I have to go through those intersections I drive well under the speed limit because I know the yellow light may be set too short and therefore I have to stop immediately on a yellow light. So I have to drive slowly to allow me and the people behind me to stop quickly on the yellow. It’s all one more think I don’t want to have to think about, but I have heard that these cameras cut down substantially on serous accidents caused by people running red lights. I just want them to not set the yellow lights shorter than all the other yellow lights in my area!
The city of Oak Ridge. They can let a mall sit empty for nearly a decade with mostly taxpayer funded agencies as it's current tenants, they can ignore the ever increasing illegals, but they must have their cameras. They also I hear plan of a spymobile to park in various places and take pictures of various traffic offenses.
Majority of the city council and mayor aren't quite on the ball enough to generate the cities revenue by encouraging more businesses it seems and instead opted for cameras.
One good thing from this is the current city Police Chief has ruined his chance of ever being elected County Sheriff by supporting the cameras. Many residents in the county who shopped and work in Oak Ridge resent the cameras as well.
I am on a boycott of Oak Ridge myself until the cameras are taken down and I used to spend around $500 a month there shopping. A neighboring town in the county called Clinton is growing much faster than Oak Ridge is these days as far as business recruitment goes. I go to Clinton or Halls to shop now.
You do not have to slam on the brakes. That is why you anticipate the light changing and coming to a slow stop. We have had cameras in the LA area and I never received a ticket from a camera light.
You do not have to slam on the brakes. That is why you anticipate the light changing and coming to a slow stop. We have had cameras in the LA area for ten years and I never received a ticket from a camera light
Knock on wood!!
You do with a short yellow. Even without a short yellow, people think they have to slam on the brakes to avoid camera tickets. Which causes accidents.
If its a short yellow and you are already past the second white line, then you proceed through the intersection .But you still anticipate the light.”Fortune Favors the Prepared Mind”.
Yes, and that is the aspect that the lawyer ought to be fighting. That has, apparently, been the way things are in Tennessee for a while.
Here too. There is no recourse in court.
I’m glad you are in the group that doesn’t get in accidents or receive camera tickets because you are prepared for the light to change. Other drivers are not as prepared as you would like for them to be. The will have accidents that could have been avoided with longer yellows or, better yet, by getting rid of the cameras.
That money does not go into things like road repair. It goes directly into the general fund where its wasted.
So, if it's the "middle of the night", you can break the law. I go to work very early on Mondays and I must say, a lot of people on the road have that same attitude. They don't stop at stop signs and some just breeze through red lights.
If you don't want a ticket, don't break the law.
I sincerely believe that these cameras should be outlawed for a very simple reason.
That is, they record the license plate of the vehicle and issue the ticket to it’s registered owner.
What if the registered owner was not the driver? Seems like wrongful persecution doesn’t it? Violation of civil rights?
Not to mention you have a right to confront your accuser. You can question the cop who writes you a ticket, but how do you confront and question a camera?
The cameras must be outlawed. If the intersection is a problem then put police there. End of story.
Still, it causes you to post twice using up valuable pixels.
You have been busted. Pay up for using more than your government pixel footprint. lol
They killed off that Golden Goose in our state.
State law said all the fine money from traffic tickets had to go to the schools. The school systems sued for “ALL” the money generated from the photo cameras.
Since the police departments paid a private company to run the cameras they would be losing money - so they all stopped and now the schools get nothing.
You correctly said.......I sincerely believe that these cameras should be outlawed for a very simple reason.
That is, they record the license plate of the vehicle and issue the ticket to it’s registered owner.
What if the registered owner was not the driver? Seems like wrongful persecution doesn’t it? Violation of civil rights?
..............................................
This is the point that most people don’t understand. I own numerous vehicles but none are technically in my name. They are in the wifes name simply because she is the one that goes to the DMV to register them or they are in the company name.
So. is she responsible for the drivers of every vehicle we own?
She will be the one receiving the tickets. Is she supposed to track down who was driving the vehicle at the time and become a step-cop???????????
The redlight/speeding cameras have nothing to do with enforcing the law. They are simply a revenue producing tool for the government. Or BIG BROTHER, if you will.
If someone can tell me why this is legal, I’d like to hear it.
I think around here tailgating is considered a sport of some kind.
The real funny ones are the guy that zips over from the far left lane to the far right lane to get around a couple of cars - about 3 feet from their bumpers and when he pops into the right lane nails somebody turning into a driveway.
And then there is...........
Personally, I support blowing them off their mounts with a shotgun.
They are not there for safety purposes. They are nothing but a revenue producing scam, no different than excessively low speed limits on highways that run through rural towns.
I am firmly opposed to criminalizing behavior for the sole consideration of how much money it will make the municipality.
Luckily these cameras are illegal in central florida ,, they cannot issue a traffic citation ,, rather they issue a civil infraction and cannot harm you by making it impossible to renew your tags or any similar scheme ... they can only send it to collections if you refuse to pay...
Same here ,, pay for the court costs and (automatically) lose because BECAUSE IT"S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.
That's fine in theory, Newbie.
Except its been found, reported, and posted here on FR numerous times that these Companies or Towns decrease the time the Yellow Light is on. So an intersection that once had a Five Second Yellow, now has a Three Second Yellow with the Camera. And wallah -- you're now caught going through or in the intersection on a Red Light, when the day before you'd make it through the intersection before the Red Light went on.
Being a Newbie you obviously missed all those threads.
[Newbies. Can't live with 'em, can't zot 'em.]
We have had there here in Missouri for few years and I have noticed that people are running red lights less. I have to deal with several a day, and have never seen a rear end collision, not that it doesn’t happen.
There have been challenges here and they have all been struck down. They violations are all treated as civil infractions with just a fine levied.
Now if it’s found out that traffic engineers are lowering the times to help generate revenue, I say sue that city until it bleeds.
You will never get a ticket for not trying to beat a yellow.
If they play their game by cheating with three second yellow lights, I don't feel bad to cheat back.
I have not have a ticket for over 10 years with the cameras installed in the LA area.Smart..eh.
I have never been busted by a camera light for over the 10 years they have been existence in LA.
I too have not been busted from the ones all over the Bay Area nor the ones I have seen in LA.
“Smith also said the cameras violate Tennessee’s open courts law because every time you get a ticket you owe $50.”
In CA it is $370.
Studies have shown that they reduce the yellow light intervals where they set up the cameras.
That is true and they have fixed that problem here after people complained.
If you are interested, for a modest fee some GPS systems can guide you around cameras. They actually point out the intersections where the cameras are located in all 50 states. I know that Tom Tom and Garmin has this feature
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