Posted on 03/22/2009 10:45:20 PM PDT by george76
St. Louis, MO- The city installed red light cameras at twenty intersections, and they've taken in nearly $2 million in fines since they were installed last summer.
Traffic Law Center where spokesperson Ann Horner says she see flashes from the camera on a daily basis.
Horner however says there are no consequences for not paying.
She says if you have outstanding parking tickets you cannot renew your plates or driver's license, but there's nothing in place like that if you get a red light ticket.
Horner says it's all unconstitutional because there's a presumption of innocence in this country, and the tickets go on the premise that you're guilty.
(Excerpt) Read more at kmov.com ...
I agree that the premise of the red-light camera is guilty. I am a computer programmer and know how easy it would be to program the camera to activate while the light is still yellow; also, the arrangement of the private companies getting a portion of the ticket monies is incentive for them to increase the number of ‘”violators” that they can catch.
It has been shown in studies that increasing yellow-light time decreases accidents, yet whenever these red-light cameras are installed, ‘mysteriously’ the yellow-light times decrease.
Right. And income taxes are also unconstitutional, so you can ignore the IRS, too. I haven’t filed in 3 years. What could possibly go wrong?
What’s this constitution some speak of?
They get around that by making it simply a civil fine. No points on your license, no criminal charges. It’s just a civil violation. A method of tax collection.
Everybody outta the intersection! Just slam on your brakes so you get rear-ended instead. :-/
(The love of money is the root of all evil.)
Arguments that these cameras are to improve safety are ridiculous as the number of violations always continues to increase. Wouldn’t a safety program be expected to reduce violations and thus improve safety? The local jurisdictions using these devices have no assurance that they are being used legally and that the maker isn’t increasing profits by triggering the camera while the light is still yellow.
Two reasons for these cameras:
1. Raise money
2. Go back to reason one.
Vince
Innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law; the video evidence is the proof. Unless you believe that the cameras have been jiggered to give false evidence, pay the darned fine. Don't make the public eat the cost of a court proceeding unless you are indeed innocent.
Now, having the cameras there in the first place, that's a different matter for discussion...
I believe it was GA that just passed a law requiring longer yellows where redlight cams were installed.
Localities’ revenues dropped to almost nothing, and they weren’t able to justify the lease price of the cameras.
Who is the accuser, though?
They’re probably not unconstitutional. The presumption of innocence is only pre-evidential. The traffic camera photo is the evidence — so, once it is presented, the presumption of innocence is no longer germane.
SnakeDoc
>> Who is the accuser, though?
The officer issuing the ticket based on the camera footage. It is no different than making an arrest based on security camera footage.
SnakeDoc
where i live, it's a $50 fine, no points since you cannot see who is driving. it's simply to make money.
Damn right they’re un-Constitutional! It’s called the 5th Amendment!
actually no it is significantly different.
In the instance of the camera footage there is a human accuser. (x took my stuff, x battered me) the footage is proof of the observation.
The redlight camera is a tool just like a radar gun or laser gun or breathyliser. If they are not calibrated and certified by a human who can raise their right hand for examiniation then they can not be used against the accused.
This is why they by pass due process rules and make them mere money generating tickets.
I can’t believe this even merits discussion. Do we all want to be Winston Smith or not?
>> In the instance of the camera footage there is a human accuser. (x took my stuff, x battered me) the footage is proof of the observation.
Sometimes, the camera is the only witness. It is completely legal to use such evidence, even in a victimless crime (where there is no victim to notice a battery or theft, for instance) — X used drugs on tape, X picked up a hooker, X trespassed on my property, etc.
>> If they are not calibrated and certified by a human who can raise their right hand for examiniation then they can not be used against the accused.
I suppose that’s true. But, they are calibrated and certified by an officer, and thus can be used against the accused.
>> This is why they by pass due process rules and make them mere money generating tickets.
I agree that this is more about revenue generation than public safety — and, personally, I’m tired of being nickled-and-dimed. But, that doesn’t make it unconstitutional.
SnakeDoc
You don’t get a ticket for not getting trhough the intersect before a red light appears.
You get the ticket for ENTERING the intersection when the light turns RED.
Big difference.
I pass through them all day long. I like that it cuts down on the numerous people who run red lights.
using drugs on camera without the drugs does not stand up in court. Usually dismissed on pre trial motion.
for x picked up hooker, the hooker is there to raise the right hand and testify.
Same for the calibrations.
There was a series of famous cases where a toll authority, NJ I believe, tried giving out tickets based on the time stamps of the toll ticket and the arrival at the pay booth time. Those were tossed.
I think these tickes have a big problem with the “fine splitting” where conviction equals profit.
BTW
Kids are now making fake paper tags with THE TAGS OF PEOPLE THEY HATE, so the person who gets the ticket is the school principle etc.
So kids find the plate number of some political official and just tack a printout of his plate and the kids suddenly have some politician hit with thousands of tickets.
Would be hillarious to sell Barney Frank tags, and you’d probably make some money.
what the kids are doing is just scanning a license plate, they then use the same letter font style and duplicate the plate.
So you would find the person’s plate number and proper decals and just photo shop it. At least that is what the news report said. Some kids were doing this to the school principal.
If you decide to get in the intersection on the shorter yellows, the cars in the other direction get the green with you following a slower car through the intersection. Cars getting the green may not be at a stop and be cruising through, only to meet cars still in the intersection.
My issue is with the short yellow cycle. If they are making these cycles shorter to nab more motorists (and increase revenue) in the intersection, they are also playing with people's safety.
“Except I have a buddy that has not filed in just under 20 years. He makes over 190k a year and pays all his state taxes.
They’d better hurry up and catch him before he dies of old age. ;)
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