Will the Church Split Along Red and Blue Lines?

Read some of the comments by pro-Obama "Catholics", it loks like the author hit a nerve.

I am not Catholic but I do not understand how any true Catholic could or would support Nobama.

There is a real problem with Catholics supporting Obama and other proabortion politicians since the Church is adamantly antiabortion. The problem is those who vote for the proabortion politicians really don't believe in the principles that they espouse to believe in.

This dichotomy also affects Baptist and others.

I’m a non-practicing Catholic, and the following is mostly just snark against most of the Hierarchy of the Church in North America, and nothing at all against regular people of the Catholic Faith:

But:

I thought that the only actual Conservative value that Catholics were permitted to hold is to be anti-abortion.

A true catholic could never vote for anyone who thought abortion was a right let alone anyone who would condone allowing a born infant to die because it’s Mother didn’t want it. We call them CINO’s Catholic in name only and they should be purged from the church, IMHO. There are plenty of protestant churches who think that abortion is ok, they would be welcomed there.

The divide has already hit the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).

It will be hard for the ELCA to avoid shipwreck next August when the gaysbian agenda of allowing non-chaste homosexual clergy and blessing same-sex unions once again comes up for vote by the national assembly. This time it is being promoted through a series of studies, initiated by a handful of Synods (dioceses) including, surprise, surprise: metro Chicago, metro New York, metro DC, and Minneapolis. The blue tail wags the dog.

I am Catholic and I don’t understand it either. I tell them to vote against abortion, don’t be an enabler because as far as I’m concerned you are an accomplice to murder. Chew on that for a while...

The Lord knows his sheep. They hear his voice and follow. Goats, on the other hand, like to tailor the true faith to fit whatever is convenient. They may attend a church, but they aren’t members of The Church, which is one.

Those of you who are members of the true church know exactly what I’m writing about. Those who aren’t...well...might be voting for the baby killing party.

Will the Church Split Along Red and Blue Lines?

Heck no. The true church will never support an abortionist like Obama.

Given Obama’s fanatical devotion to abortion and the death culture, no one who votes for him can claim Catholic affiliation. They have excommunicated themselves.

...I do not understand how any true Catholic could or would support Nobama.

Many Catholics are carrying on a tradition of revenge against American nativists/English which goes back centuries.

It hinders honest and rational thinking.

I am Catholic and I am definitely a Conservative, but I know what you mean. The CCC is grey on issues of economics. This greyness leads many people to pick the most socialist parts of Catholicism while ignoring the Church’s belief in private property. Catholicism is a big tent so you will get capitalists and socialists.

What is truly disturbing is Catholics who ignore the Vatican’s vividly clear position on abortion.

The author touches on it a bit, but this is a symptom of a much larger problem - widespread dissent. I doubt there will be a split any worse than there is now as the hard-core liberals are for the most part dying off or aging. A good many have isolated themselves in magnet parishes (it keeps them away from the rest of us).

There are a lot of "Catholics" out there who will challenge a norm on principle. When Catholic, there is no principle save what the church teaches. The problem being that the church doesn't adequately teach what it should. Sunday morning I heard the second most offensive "s" word to liberals come out of a priest's mouth - shame. It's a concept that needs to return. Liberals have none and by persuading others to shed theirs, they are contributing to the destruction of others.

Maybe they’ll get their feelings hurt and stop wasting their time being “good” Catholics and find something else to do on Sunday. I mean, I can understand if you are Catholic AND dislike McCain. I’m Protestant, and I admire McCain’s patriotism, but NOT his politics. Still, I know the difference between a closet Muslim and a man who loves his country and fears the TRUE God.

If people are “religious” and attend Church, but LEARN NOTHING FROM IT, then why waste their time, and why do they put so much energy into “convincing” everyone that they’re “good” Catholics? And HOW can you be a “good” Catholic and support Mr. Infanticide?!!

I thought that the only actual Conservative value that Catholics were permitted to hold is to be anti-abortion.

How would anyone know? Actually, I know quite a few conservatives who are daily communicants. My grandmother was the most Catholic person I ever knew and she didn't believe in income taxes, inheritance taxes or confiscation of any sort. But she did provide space in her cellar for the food pantry for the parish St. Vincent de Paul Society. For Grandma, giving had to be from the heart, not a government mandate.

The Faith is very individual. It is what you make of it. Part of the problem, IMO, is that those in teaching positions have abused their vocations by pushing an agenda that emphasizes "the system" over individual responsibility which is a grave error. The proper way to confess is individually. Confirmation is done individually. Prayer is very individual as are devotions. It's really a personal thing no matter what the libs want us to believe.

BTW — I didn’t make myself clear in that post ..

I dislike McCain’s penchant for making deals across the aisle that do NOTHING but hurt the Conservative cause. He “thinks” he is a Reagan Conservative, but he is not.

Still .. I’ll vote for McCain .. but mostly for SARAH.

After Vatican II, during the 60’s, it seemed that the gays (lavender mafia) and “Liberation Theology” took over some of the seminaries.

“DEPART from ME, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

This could bring the schism that many (BXVI included) have hinted out.

Simply, there are a lot of Catholics who are 180 degrees out of phase from what the Catholic Church supposedly stands for. And I use that term because some of them are bishops!

The Pope is pushing hard, and such a situation can't last for long. Either there will be a split or a revival.

"...a tradition of revenge against American nativists/English which goes back centuries."

This is really mostly an Irish-Catholic neurosis; Catholics of central and southern European origin got enrolled into the Democratic Party by their fellow-Catholic Irish-Americans at the beginning of the last century, but don't have them same dogmatic loyalty to Tammany. The eastern European Catholics led the exodus out of the Democratic Party first as Reagan Democrats in the 1970s, followed closely by the Italians, all of whom had consistently found themselves passed over for party patronage anyway.

Many Catholics are carrying on a tradition of revenge against American nativists/English which goes back centuries.

So true. My ex in-laws were exactly like that.

I thought that the only actual Conservative value that Catholics were permitted to hold is to be anti-abortion.

Catholics believe that rights are bestowed by the Creator, not the Government. All other beliefs flow from that. The Catholic Church has vehemently denounced socialism (medicine worse than disease) but neither endorses unrestrained Capitalism.

Pope Benedict gave a smashing speech on Freedom in the Rose Garden this year. His fondness for Pres. Bush (like JPII's fondness for Reagan) is based on a shared ideology.

The best kept secrets in America are the Vatican's true teachings. For example, you didn't see these in the American press:

9/2004 Vatican renews commitment to the war on Islamic terror:

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/12053/

12/2007 Pope Benedict condemns climate alarmists (thou shalt not teach theory as science):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501316/The-Pope-condemns-climate-change-prophets-doom.html

“Many will finally realize, and admit to, the power of the political Left in their Church. This may lead to a kind of red state, blue state divide among Catholics in the United States. Such a divide could extend to the dioceses, reflecting both regional differences and the leadership of present and past bishops.”

I don’t hold out much hope for conservative Catholics on this. The same battle, in church and society, has already been waged among Catholics in Europe and the non-conservatives, the progressives and socialists won - they won because Catholics made common cause with socialists on “social justice”, which simply helped bring socialists to power and they could give two hoots about abortion. The Obama campaign is just the current leading edge of the same course the Catholic left wants to take here.

The Pope is pushing hard, and such a situation can't last for long. Either there will be a split or a revival.

Most of those people who would split are over age 60. They are the graying 50s and 60s generation. Unfortunately, because of their seniority, many of them are in leadership positions. But the Church is waiting them out at this point. When they pass on to their eternal reward (or not), things will begin to change for the better.

impimp1: “Catholicism is a big tent so you will get capitalists and socialists.”

There’s plenty of guidance in scripture concerning economics. The early church shared everything...voluntarily. Remember Ananias and Sapphira who died after withholding funds from the church? They weren’t forced to sell their land. They could have kept it or even sold it and kept all the money. They died because they donated part and lied by saying it was all the money (Thou Shalt Not Lie).

And what about the commandment against stealing? It may be more polite to have government do your stealing for you, but it’s still stealing to take money involuntarily from one person to give to another. I’m not talking about paying the shared cost of government, like roads and national defense. I’m talking about asking the government to give you someone’s money that you haven’t earned. That’s obviously theft (Thou Shalt Not Steal).

You can’t be pro-Obama and a Catholic. Church teaching is to put life before all other social issues. Period. They have fallen into the same trap that has befallen America. The liberals have convinced them the social issues are more important. Well, I know one person who is happy, satan.

Desdomona: “I heard the second most offensive “s” word to liberals come out of a priest’s mouth - shame.”

Repentance is impossible for someone who doesn’t feel the shame of sin. It’s kind of hard to say, “Father forgive me for my sins” when you don’t think you’ve done anything wrong.

Most of those people who would split are over age 60. They are the graying 50s and 60s generation. Unfortunately, because of their seniority, many of them are in leadership positions. But the Church is waiting them out at this point.

Have mercy on us, O Christ, may they retire early.

All of my female friends (a couple of Catholics included, all the rest are a variety of Christian denominations) are pro-choice. Even the Republican ones...

No, I don’t get it either.

i.e. “To suggest that the Catholic Church might split apart over politics...well, I’ll leave it to someone else to say what that’s called. “

Many of their comments are delusional as it is God separating the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the chaff. Liberal Christians face the dilemma of trying to serve two masters and being double-minded: God and Secular Humanism. Our Lord said that it was impossible to serve one master without hating the other and the comments of these people display this truth perfectly.

Desdemona: “For Grandma, giving had to be from the heart, not a government mandate.”

It’s not charity if it’s not voluntary.

It’s not charity if it’s not voluntary.

Yes, I know. I won't repeat what that side of the family says about the Roosevelts.

Unfortunately, many American Catholics are hard-wired to vote Democrat. A case in point: tonight I drove past the house of a very friendly Irish-Catholic family I know. Four years ago, they displayed a Kerry sign on their lawn. I was hoping that this year they have seen the light. No such luck. There were three Obama/Biden signs on their lawn. Two were strategically placed on the far corners of their rather narrow frontage to make it appear as if there were three pro-Obama households in a row. This is the same family that helped run the principal of their parish school out of town because she was not “Catholic” enough. I think “Catholic” must be a code word for Dem.

I am Catholic but have never been predisposed toward the Democrat party. Maybe it is because both of my grandfathers were converts - - one in early adulthood, the other on his deathbed. Maybe no coincidence that Larry Kudlow, Robert Novak and Laura Ingraham are converts.

DarthVader: “Our Lord said that it was impossible to serve one master without hating the other and the comments of these people display this truth perfectly.”

Not only that, but prophecy says there will be people in the end times who think they are doing God’s will but will be serving evil instead. That seems to fit socialists pretty well. They sleep well at night and congratulate each other for helping the poor with other people’s money, but they are little more than thieves. In fact, I respect thieves more, because at least they are honest about it.

BTW, Muslim terrorists seems to fit this prophecy pretty close, too.

“Not only that, but prophecy says there will be people in the end times who think they are doing God’s will but will be serving evil instead.”

And will they be ever terrified when they face Him at the Great White Throne Judgment, but by then it will be to late to repent.

“Unfortunately, many American Catholics are hard-wired to vote Democrat.”

It is just like being a suicide bomber.

Catholics are not allowed to vote pro-abortion are they?

Aren’t they disinvited from communion if they do?

"BTW, Muslim terrorists seems to fit this prophecy pretty close, too."

The Islamic foundational social system is often referred to as "bandit socialism" because it mandated a communal sharing of resources God promised to deliver via pillage of outsiders. The Tammany-patronage outlook of many Irish-Americans is similar.

I didn't think there were any Catholics left in Europe. The church has no influence in Spain France or even Italy. I think Poland is the only Catholic country left

The true church will never support an abortionist like Obama.

Most of us can agree with that statement, Catholic, Protestant or otherwise. It is better for Catholics, Lutherans or any other denomination to part company in peace rather than to allow the machinery of the church to be hijacked by the servants of Satan.

Poland has the sole remaining Catholic majority; Spain, Ireland and the Czech Republic still have functioning Catholic minority parties—a resistance movement, as it were.

I’ve been carefully monitoring yard signs in my neighborhood. I still can’t get over the “Notre Dame” house where both parents attended ND and sent all 3 kids there. Active, church-going Roman Catholic. Never had a yard sign up before this year ... helluva candidate to decide to go with, given their backgrounds.

I don’t know how any Christian could support either major candidate.

The Catholics who support Obama or who are dimocrat and support the abortion plank of their platform excommunicate themselves by doing so. Here's what 26 out of 56 bishops say.

Updated: American Bishops who have spoken against Pelosi

Here is the complete list of American bishops who have responded to Nancy Pelosi's comments so far:

Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver was the first American bishop to respond
... Bishop James Conley, his auxiliary, joined him
Archbishop Donald Wuerl of Washington DC responded twice, first in a press release and second in a statement to The Hill. He has also appeared on Fox News, I am told.
Cardinal Justin Regali of Philadelphia, chairman of the Committee on Pro-Life Activities, issued this statement through the USCCB website...
... Bishop William Lori of Bridgeport, chairman of the Committee on Doctrine, joined him
Cardinal Edward Egan of New York publised a strongly worded statement of his own
Bishop Samuel Aquila of Fargo issued a letter correcting Pelosi's claims
Bishop David Zubik of Pittsburgh and...
... Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs have chimed-in
Archbishop Jose Gomez of San Antonio, CNA reports has added his voice ...
... Bishop Oscar Cantu, his auxiliary bishop, has joined him
Bishop William Murphy of Rockville has published an extensive letter
Bishop Edward Slattery of Tulsa has a detailed response
Bishop Kevin Farrell of Dallas has joined the USCCB's efforts
Bishop Gregory Aymond of Austin is on-board
Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston mentions the USCCB on his blog
Bishop Thomas Wenski of Orlando has written at length
Archbishop John Nienstedt of Saint Paul/Minneapolis challenges Pelosi's statement
Cardinal Francis George of Chicago, President of the US Bishops, has weighed-in
Bishop Robert Vasa of Baker, OR publishes in the Catholic Sentinel
Bishop Jerome Listecki of La Crosse, WI responds in a word document
Bishop Richard Lennon of Cleveland, OH will comment in his September 5th column (PDF)
Bishop Ralph Nickless of Sioux City, IA has one of the very best responses I've read
Archbishop George Niederauer of San Francisco has invited Pelosi to a "conversation"
Bishop Glen Provost, LA: "Catholic Church clear on when human life begins"
Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of Brooklyn: "Judging the Candidates"

{Last updated on September 10th.}

Notes:

Previous #23 has been removed. Bishop Joseph Gossman of Raleigh, NC is actually the bishop emeritus, and the new bishop, Michael Burbidge has not, to my knowledge, made a personal statement.
Previous #16 has also been removed, it was an erroneous duplication of current #13.
#26 was added September 10th, although he published his column September 6th

“I didn’t think there were any Catholics left in Europe. The church has no influence in Spain France or even Italy. I think Poland is the only Catholic country left.”

You made my point. They’ve had a 60+ year political alliance with the Marxists in Europe on “social justice” and, like I said, they “won” in politics, along with their Marxists allies and the potential new generations noticed there was no distinction between the Catholic position and the socialists position, on nearly every social issue, and concluded since the socialists shared the moral point of view with Catholics, then why bother with being a Catholic.

The Church survived in Poland as a protest against the Communist dictatorship. Give them a couple generations in the constant intellectual embrace of western Europe and the Polish Parishes will be empty too.

The prognosis for the Church in Poland is brighter than nearly anywhere else in Europe, since it escaped having its hierarchy dominated by the political elites as in much of the rest of Catholic states on the Continent, or becoming entangled in revolutionary social movements as in Ireland.

Nations with historically republican tendencies like Poland may prove to be the healthiest soil for Catholicism over the long run.

Catholics are not allowed to vote pro-abortion are they?

That is my understanding and this has been reiterated by the Pope and several bishops recently. Unfortunately, there are some who ignore this. Abortion is a mortal sin, it is not justifiable under any circumstances -- despite what some would have us believe, there is no "grey area" here.

Aren’t they disinvited from communion if they do?

Theoretically, a Catholic can excommunicate themselves through certain actions, I'm not sure where this falls into that. A Catholic voting for a pro-abortion politician is somewhat different from a Catholic politician voting to support abortion.

I would love to see a priest publicly refuse to give Communion to someone like Biden and Pelosi. It would be a seemingly insignificant act, but it would open the eyes of millions of voters including many non-Catholics.

I’ll vote for McCain .. but mostly for SARAH

I was leading prayer meetings just prior to the Bush/Gore election from 8 years ago.

Listening to others and the voice of God in the room, I encounter principles that have guided me through politics and politicians.

Instead of nit-picking every detail of a candidate, Look for these high-road principles - 1) Do they support the country of Israel? 2) Do they support life for the unborn child? and 3) What is their position and life message about the Lord Jesus Christ?

I have found that everything else that I value will line up under these principles.

The Obama campaign is just the current leading edge of the same course the Catholic left wants to take here.

In that case you should have no trouble naming a few Bishops who publicly support Obama's position on abortion, or who even hint that a vote for him is permissable.

Why should they go to a protestant church when the Catholic Church is more then willing to accept them as they turn a blind eye?