Burning Saltwater: Kanzius and Penn State Chemist Rostum Roy

Desalination Research And Development ^ | 9/14.07 | Charles Kilmer

[ckilmer]

independent source measured the flame’s temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output.

The useful question is whether this bit of scientific nonsense is due to the journalist, or the promoter.
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Back in the 90’s when the SuperCollider was being built in Texas, Rustum Roy published an article in Physics Today questioning the enormous amount of money that was to be spent on this, and presumably diverted from other areas of scientific research. Leon Lederman, a Nobel Prize winner and SuperCollider backer, responded in a letter that questioned whether Rustum Roy was even a real person. Another writer then pointed out that making fun of Roy’s name was a sign that the SuperCollider backers did not have a valid argument. Not too long after this the SuperCollider was defunded.

[ckilmer]

It looks like the RF mimics the atomic frequency of platinum thereby “fooling” the water into “thinking” there is a catalyst in the water. there might also be involved a harmonic of the platinum atomic RF. That destabilizes but doesn’t crack the H2 out of the H20 molecule. What does the cracking is the super heated Na which like any metal in microwave — gets superhot superfast. the heat cracks the destabilized H2 out of the H20 molecule.

The process is not entirely dissimilar to the way most hydrogen is produced today: carbon steam reformation.

Further experiments would involve further focusing the RF so that less wattage is needed to destablize the H20 and also playing with the Na or another heatsink so to maximize its heatsink properties—so that perhaps less wattage cracks more H2 out of the H20 molecule.

[dangerdoc]

There is already technology moving the efficiency of water electrolysis significantly closer to 100% while reducing need for expensive catalysts.

I’ll grant this may be a more efficient way to do electrolysis but that has certainly not been shown to be true. Also producing a mixed combination of hydrogen and oxygen is not particularly useful.

The best catalysts available either metallic or otherwise, can make the reaction occur more spontaneously but does not change the overall energy equation. Redox reactions can occur in both directions, in one direction energy has to be added, in the other direction energy is released. If you could overcome this fact, there would be no need to make hydrogen, you could reduce carbon dioxide, react it with steam and make as much gasoline as you wanted.

It would be no different if somebody claimed they had a pump that could pump water up a hill using less energy than it takes to lift the water up the hill.

[Erasmus]

I was referring to the scientifically illiterate remark attributed by the article’s author to Mr. Kanzius, not Dr. Roy.

And if Dr. Roy had misgivings about the SSC, well good for him; nothing wrong with that. [Although I have been trying to think of profitable uses for a 50-mile-long hole in the ground. Hypersonic boomerang range, maybe? < }:^)]

On the other hand, I remain leery of Dr. Roy’s laudatory statements on this invention, (the one I criticized not being one).

[mdmathis6]

Well that was the question I had...whether or not a solar power experiment which makes the electricity which makes the radio waves which then powers the salt water tank to strip hydrogen from water and whether or not such a process could be made viable commercially, given a limitless supply of power from the sun(given the fact of inefficiencies in the system). I’m thinking of the “hydrogen” economy that folks would like to bring about. Could such a system produce usable amounts of hydrogen despite iefficiency in the energy transfers since the ultimate power source is the sun?

I’m well aware that you can’t get something from nothing but as solar power cells continue to get much more efficient as well as that new solar panel “paint” that I was reading about, would it matter if the system was only 5 per cent effient if the enery transfer source was the sun itself?

[lesser_satan]

bump

[ckilmer]

Are we sure sodium isn’t being stripped from its cloride ion causing the sodium to burn in solution?
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likely the two are broken up and —since they are positively and negatively charged respectively —they recombine with positive and negative elements in the water.

the process has similarities to methane steam reformation

[ckilmer]

And if Dr. Roy had misgivings about the SSC, well good for him; nothing wrong with that. [Although I have been trying to think of profitable uses for a 50-mile-long hole in the ground. Hypersonic boomerang range, maybe? < }:^)]

On the other hand, I remain leery of Dr. Roy’s laudatory statements on this invention, (the one I criticized not being one).
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Dr Roy was careful not to say that the process netted out energy. He said specifically that that was one of the problems that he would present to the dod and the doe research officials. The other thing he didn’t comment on was precisely how the process worked. He didn’t know. that too was something he deemed important enough to ask the federal officials to grant money for funding to look into. Dr. Roy is materials scientists specializing in water. He’s going to know all about electrolysis and thermodynamics. He is saying this process isn’t something understood. I bears further study.

[ckilmer]

The best catalysts available either metallic or otherwise, can make the reaction occur more spontaneously but does not change the overall energy equation. Redox reactions can occur in both directions, in one direction energy has to be added, in the other direction energy is released. If you could overcome this fact, there would be no need to make hydrogen, you could reduce carbon dioxide, react it with steam and make as much gasoline as you wanted.

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most hydrogen in the USA is produced using a method called methane steam reformation. methane & steam are mixed under heat and pressure in the presence of the cataylist nickel.

wickipedia Steam reforming of natural gas, sometimes referred to as steam methane reforming (SMR) is the most common method of producing commercial bulk hydrogen as well as the hydrogen used in the industrial synthesis of ammonia. It is also the least expensive method.[1] At high temperatures (700 – 1100 °C) and in the presence of a metal-based catalyst (nickel), steam reacts with methane to yield carbon monoxide and hydrogen.

CH4 + H2O → CO + 3 H2

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I think the Kanzius RF process will produce a similiar reconfiguration with H2O and NaCl where the RF plays a double role of the catalyst nickel and the heat & pressure. The specifics of it I can't say that I understand except that a physicist mentioned to me that the RF kicks the electron in the H2 into a higher quantum state and thereby loosens the bonds in the H20 molecule. But at this point I'm just talking conjecture. But even the materials scientist water specialist Rustum Roy didn't know precisely what was going on. I think everyone will have to wait for better answers.

[dangerdoc]

I am familiar with steam reformation and the process conserves some of the chemical energy stored in hydrocarbons as elemental hydrogen.

An equivalent claim would be reacting CO2 with salt and making elemental carbon then claiming you are using less energy than would be obtained by burning that carbon back to CO2.

[ckilmer]

I am familiar with steam reformation and the process conserves some of the chemical energy stored in hydrocarbons as elemental hydrogen.

An equivalent claim would be reacting CO2 with salt and making elemental carbon then claiming you are using less energy than would be obtained by burning that carbon back to CO2.

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yeah i'm familiar with the water as ash analogy.

what I'm hearing is that the RF may actually shift the H2 electrons into a higher quantum energy state--by immitating the atomic RF of a catalyst. (in this instance maybe platinum)Since catalysts are inert--that is--they facilitate a reaction without being changed themselves--- that may mean that the machine generate RF may facilitate the electron quantum leap while losing relatively less energy itself..... This would be different than a normal electrolysis ion reaction.

That's the hypothesis.

More experiments & study are to follow.

I put the patent number 6217712 into this searcher at the US Patent Office:

Catalytic simulation using radio frequency waves

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Inversely, here’s a report on NIST scientists using radio wave RF to cool atoms. There’s considerable detail as to how this is done.

[dangerdoc]

I’m repeating myself but....

A catalyst does not change the thermodynamics of a reaction, it only speeds it up by decreasing the threshold energy required to start the reaction.

If the RF energy pumps up the electron state, it is adding energy into the molecule. If it can pump enough energy in, the OH bonds will break releasing oxygen and hydrogen. You can do this with heat also. You still have to add more energy into the system than you will get in usefull energy out of the system.

Even if this is the most efficient way to split water, it will not produce more energy than you put in. You also have to find a way to collect the resulting gas without it igniting and seperating the hydrogen and oxygen without blowing yourself up.

If you are interested in technology that may reduce our dependence on foreign oil, I can point you to several but honestly, this isn’t it.

BTW, water as ash is not an analogy. It is infact and indeed the ash from burning hydrogen.

[ckilmer]

A catalyst does not change the thermodynamics of a reaction, it only speeds it up by decreasing the threshold energy required to start the reaction.

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right. this is exactly correct.

The RF is lowering the threshhold enrgy required to start the reaction.

But its doing something with the salt as well. RF is not electrolysis but you can see the effect of salt on electrolysis in the following experiment.

This experiment is well documented it shows how the addition of salt to water will increase the output of hydogen ten times over

[dangerdoc]

The video you linked to has nothing to do with RF electrolysis. They are using a battery charger. Tap water is a good insulator, adding salt to the solution reduces the resistance to current speeding up the electrolysis.

[SunkenCiv]

Oh, and BTW, graham crackers cure alcoholism.

CANCER BREAKTHROUGH?:
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[SunkenCiv]

Whoops! At least one more:

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[SunkenCiv]

Giant Microwave Turns Plastic Back To Oil
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1856728/posts

[neverdem]

Thanks for the ping. Whether there is a therapeutic application or not for any cancer, do any of your links address the efficiency of usable energy? IIRC, the original story for the thread implies entropy is now moot.

[SunkenCiv]

Entropy isn’t moot. :’) Not so far, anyway. ;’) If there is a phenomenon at work here, it probably has to do with the free hydrogen (free as in unattached to oxygen) which is found in small quantities in water. If the technology uses less energy to round up the hydrogen for use in a fuel cell than is produced by the fuel cell, then it is worthwhile. Otherwise, no, probably not.