Posted on 05/06/2007 7:00:53 AM PDT by Valin
They want neither Sharia, nor a coup, but a fully democratic Turkey.
First they demonstrated in Ankara, then in Istanbul, and today's protest is the third in one month to be organized by supporters of Turkey's secular constitution in the west… in Manisa
Another rally was held in the town of Canakkale.
And it will continue to Izmir, Bursa, and Adana…etc….
It will cover Turkey!
What's happening in Turkey is incredible…
I bow to those people with their red national flags showed to the world that they are Free. Never minding the disorder and the confusion within the country these days because the are aware that it will produce at least one POSITIVE result and that's abroad Turkey will be recognized as pluralist secular democracy! That they are Free!
I bow to those people who showed and still showing that they are the ones who are responsible for the identity of the future president of Turkey and are crying out loud that any fundamental shift from secular tradition towards a religious state is not welcomed! Is not allowed!!
I bow to those people who demonstrated, who were strong and powerful with their slogans aimed against the government. They want them to resign!!
I bow to those people, who want to preserve the inseparable principles of democracy and secularism".
I bow to the demonstrators' old women, men, children and youth who shouted " Turkey is secular and will remain secular"
I bow to the old woman who said: I am here to protect Ataturk's state….
I bow to the old man who said: They want to drag Turkey to the dark ages…
I bow to the one who was annoyed and stated that he didn't want the presidential palace to be for imams…
And to the housewife who said that she doesn't want a covered woman in Ataturk's presidential palace…and a university student "We want civilized, modern people there" shared the same idea.
How can I not BOW to these people!!? Especially Women, the organizers and the ones who made up the majority of the participants in the Turkish streets?
I BOW to them ALL….
I am Humbled in the face of the bravery of those in Turkey.
I bow to them myself. They know that they are taking a risk to support the principle of secular government. The Islamists are best known for killing anyone who disagrees with them.
If they’d just dump islam entirely, then I’ll really be thankful.
The radical loser (Long Read)
Der Spiegel ^ | 1/12/05 | Hans Magnus Enzensberger
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1694568/posts
(snip)
Contrary to what the West appears to believe, the destructive energy of Islamist actions is directed mainly against Muslims. This is not a tactical error, not a case of “collateral damage”. In Algeria alone, Islamist terror has cost the lives of at least 50,000 fellow Algerians. Other sources speak of as many as 150,000 murders, although the military and the secret services were also involved. In Iraq and Afghanistan, too, the number of Muslim victims far outstrips the death toll among foreigners. Furthermore, terrorism has been highly detrimental not only to the image of Islam but also to the living conditions of Muslims around the world.
The Islamists are as unconcerned about this as the Nazis were about the downfall of Germany. As the avant-garde of death, they have no regard for the lives of their fellow believers. In the eyes of the Islamists, the fact that most Muslims have no desire to blow themselves and others sky high only goes to show that they deserve no better than to be liquidated themselves. After all, the aim of the radical loser is to make as many other people into losers as possible. As the Islamists see it, the fact that they are in the minority can only be because they are the chosen few.
(snip)
The history of Turkey's "secular democracy" is neither democratic nor free of violence and oppression. The secular military has had to assert its control numerous times since Mustafa Kemal Atatürk took power in 1923. Furthermore, Kemal was involved with the the Armenian genocide.
The point I'm making is that this situation is not an automatic validation of the current administration's efforts to "democratize" the region. If Turkey is any sort of precedent, we should forget that naive notion and accept the requirement that force is the only thing that will keep the islamists from holding power in any Islamic country.
The brave secularists in Turkey know they need more than demonstrations to restrain the islamists. They're right.
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2007/s07040135.htm
ASSIST News Service (ANS) - PO Box 609, Lake Forest, CA 92609-0609 USA
Visit our web site at: www.assistnews.net — E-mail: danjuma1@aol.com
Thursday, April 26, 2007
“A letter to the Global Church from The Protestant Church of Smyrna (revised — please use this version)”
By Dan Wooding
Founder of ASSIST Ministries
SMYRNA, TURKEY
1,401 posted on 04/27/2007 6:44:54 AM EDT by Cindy
Here is a link to a background thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1824861/posts
bump for later reead
I, too, bow to the Turkish people for supporting their Constitution!!
Thanks.
“I don’t see ‘secularism’ as something for which people should be proud to fight. Freedom is something for which I would fight, not secularism.”
There is a difference between the need for secularism in the Islamic world and secularism in the Judeo-Christian world. I have pointed out for years now that yes, it does seem hypocritical to want secular Islam and not desire secular Judaism/Christianity. However, our very freedoms are based upon the latter. Thomas Jefferson called himself a Christian, in what he considered the “true” sense of the word, in that he regarded Christ as the most important philosopher in history. Jefferson, however, was not a believer in miracles (although, if one stops to consider his belief in a Creator, there is a hint of a belief in the supernatural), but his insistance on separation of church and state had more to do with his irritation with denominational squabbles, the idea that no denomination should have state power over another, and that one should be able to practice freely.
“Furthermore, Kemal was involved with the the Armenian genocide.”
Actually, no, Ataturk wasn’t involved with that. He was a soldier busy fighting the British in Gallipoli and elsewhere during those years. There are a few Armenian sites, like the ones you linked to, that’ll accuse Ataturk of involvement, mostly because of their dislike for anyone the Turks revere.
But in reality, most third party historians do not find Ataturk to be culpable for the Armenian massacres. His troops faught Armenian troops, in an actual war. It was the Ottoman pashas that preceeded him before 1923 who caused the large scale deaths of civilians. Even the Pope, on his trip to Turkey to mend fences with the Orthodox church, visited Ataturk’s tomb; I doubt he would’ve done so had Ataturk really killed thousands of innocent Armenian Orthodox.
I do agree with the idea of needing force at times to keep Islamic fundamentalism at bay.
Thanks for the counter-views.
Kemal was a member of the party in charge at the time of the genocide, but he was a front-line general at the opposite end of the country; Some historians believe that he had knowledge of, complicity in or even an active role in the genocide, but that is a minority view, in my reading -- most historians believe he was out of the loop.
Turkey's democracy doesn't look like hours, and neither will any others that take root in the region. Maintaining its secularism requires restrictions on speech and religion that Americans -- or most Westerners -- would find intolerable. No democracy is perfect, and Turkey's is definitely less democratic and more authoritarian than ours, but it also faces different threats -- and the fact that its citizens are rallying across the country to resist the imposition of Shar'ia or something like it makes it an example for the rest of the Muslim world.
We need to be more up front about this, both in our foreign policy, and our immigration policy.
The US has a secular government by design — its laws rest on the Constitution and the will of the people, not on Scripture; judges do not look to the Bible to interpret them.
Of course, any country with a Christian majority will reflect that in the laws it passes — so will any country with a Muslim majority. But a secular government is an important level of protection, particularly for minorities, but for everyone — a government that believes its power is derived directly from God doesn’t feel the need to bend to the will of its people.
I don't think there's anything wrong with our policy toward Turkey. I wouldn't describe its government as oppressive, though it's certainly more restrictive than ours -- as are most of our allies. Canada and most European democracies have greater restriction on speech than we do, particularly in areas like Holocaust denial. Asian democracies like Singapore have far tighter curbs on behavior than most of us would want at home.
The thing about a democratic government is that won't look just like ours -- they'll strike their own balance. A democratic government in Iraq, like that in Turkey, will have to be more intrusive than the US, just to survive.
I'm thinking of the region. The fiasco in the Palestinian-held areas are a prime example. Hamas was elected democratically, from what I can tell. I'm also thinking about Islamic immigration. How can we expect these people to assimilate when the history of the region indicates that it requires force to hold their religious enthusiasm in check?
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