Posted on 11/11/2006 12:33:46 PM PST by Clive
Do you realize how many people on this planet live under tyranny that we don't really give a sh!t about and that we will not use American blood and treasure to liberate?
Coren in quite the annoying Canadian.
We can have a military presence in Kurdistan forever and remove our occupying force out of the bottom 2/3rds of Iraq tomorrow. We don't have to have over 100K troops in Iraq to have a military presence strong enough to make Syria and Iran think twice.
We haven't done well at wars since we quit formally declaring them, muzzling the press, and going for an all-out win, damn the non-combatant casualties.
Actually, we pretty well reached that stage in Vietnam. In 1972, the ARVN turned back a major armor-tipped conventional NVA invasion with U.S. air support. U.S. KIAs in '72 were around 300, IIRC.
Then the Dem Congress turned their backs on our allies in the RVN, and they were overrun by the NVA. The Soviets didn't quit backing their allies.
I should have read the thread before posting. I see you've already done a much more comprehensive long-form version of the post I just made.
So we can stash 150,000 troops in Kurdistan forever?
We don't need 150K troops in Kurdistan.
I am of the opinion it will take one HUMONGOUS crater (one ME country VAPORIZED) before the animals catch the hint. My candidates for that little lesson are Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi (Wahabbis) - the most vocal of rabid Jihadis. Pick a number as far as which one goes bye-bye first, but we're already surrounding Iran for that purpose.
It's not about Kurdistan, it's about a presence in the middle east. Something the dems are insisting we cease and desist immediately.
At the present time there are about 17,000 murders in the USA every year.
That would easily qualify for a civil war in any one of those cities, yes? We could nuke them to save them, yes?
You must have rocks in your head....we don't need the fallout drifting over areas worth saving!
If you're being serious, then don't give me moral relativism Bull$hit! I don't see where muslims have contributed squat to humanity for at least the last 2000 years, so they will not be missed.
I am also sure that there are some in my Great State of Texas who hold the same view.
So because you can't help everyone, just run away from those you can help? And we call Democrats moral equivalents!
I think that there is just too much bad blood between the Sunnis and Shiites and that ultimately because of mutual distrust the country will have to be partitioned at some point. The dream of having a united, open and democratic Iraq is no longer a realistic option at this point.
The only parallel I see with the Vietnam war is the phenomenom of an enemy unable to win on the battlefield using the US and international MSM in alliance with anti-American leftist elements within the US to convince a large segment of the American public that the war is unwinnable, who in turn will elect Rats that will cut and run and abandon the field to our enemies.
One thing that I believe HAS been demonstrated by the adoption of a constitution and the successful elections is that the vast majority of Iraqis support a representative, parliamentary system. Obviously, the working of such a system is being frustrated by the violence.
The nature of the violence is that it is being perpetrated by a small but vicious part of the Iraqi population using the tactics of the weak - car bombings, hidden IEDs, kidnappings, assasinations. It has also been demonstrated that the violent fraction of society does not have sufficient military forces or support among the population to actually hold territory if they are attacked by US and Iraqi forces.
Even though the violent element is a small part of Iraq as a whole, that does not mean that if we withdraw our support that violent element would not take over. There are many examples of a small but extremely violent element taking control of a country without popular support (but with intimidation of the population).
The dream of having a united, open and democratic Iraq is no longer a realistic option at this point.
It is way too early to make this assessment. By "united" a federal system is acceptable and by "open" a parliamentary government which uses harsh internal tactics to suppress the violent baathists and jihadis seeking to overthrow the system is acceptable.
Iraqis are still joining the security forces in large numbers and the Iraqi security forces are very slowly increasing their scope and effectiveness. Also, it takes time for those people within the Iraqi security forces with military aptitude and strong leadership skills to find their way to the top - the emergence of an Iranian-style Mustafa Kemal Ataturk would make a night-and-day difference in the effectiveness of the security forces.
Could you be right at the end of the day? Possibly, but we will not be in a position to objectively evaluate that until at least another two years, when we see whether a much larger Iraqi security force can sufficiently suppress violence throughout the Sunni triangle and in areas like Sadr City.
My take is that a workable parliamentary system will fail in Iraq only if the US loses will and prematurely withdraws military support before the Iraqi government has sufficient forces to suppress the violent element, and that will take at least a couple of further years, with logistical and material support required to continue thereafter.
<< Iranian-style Mustafa Kemal Ataturk >>
I meant Iraqi-style
I think in the end that the Sunnis and the Shiites each want to take their country in a different direction that will necessitate partitioning.
Things are going well with the Kurds at least but that is because they have a section of the country for themselves and they are a fairly homogeneous group. They are able to spot outside insurgents with relative ease and take care of them before things get out of hand.
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