New Setback in German-Polish Ties.

Spiegel Online ^ | September 4, 2006 | David Crossland

[si tacuissem]

Current ruling parties and their leaders were elected by the nation in DEMOCRATIC election and you MUST respect it, understood?

I do remember an elected leader named Clinton... I respect the fact that he was elected, but I don't have to respect the man. Or do you want to put an end to all kinds of satire an cartoons?

[wolf78]

Polish opinion about that mess is and has always been negative. Like I already had said once, that's a German "reaction" is changing since f. little potatoes took power, because "nationalistic twins" are a good excuse in this case. It's like with opinion about USA in "old EU". "Stupid Bush" and "war for oil" are just excuses. Europe hadn't been pro-American before Bush.

I brought the comparison with Schroeder (~Kaczynski) and Bush (~Koehler) also for another reason: Because I do indeed believe that Bush's reaction showed the only way to deal with such dilemma: For the most part ignore the shrill Kaczynskis and focus more on what unites us, which is the fact that we're allies in NATO and that we can both profit a lot from doing business with each other. Because if Germany "loses" jobs to Poland, Poles in return buy more German products, so it all evens out. You can't say that about China. So for the time being I think the best thing to do for Polish-German relations is to largely bypass the Kaczynski brothers and seek cooperation on a sub-national level. But that is just my opinion.

In my opinion that K's speech, which lizol translated is very good. Good that he brought up that analogy about ex-Polish eastern lands. I was also talking about that on the forum. You find that speech theatric ? You obviously have a right to your opinion.

Oh, I'm in complete agreement with lizol about that. It was at least as much an injustice the way Stalin dealt with the Polish borders as with the German. And of course it makes sense that Polish public opinion is more distrustful towards Germany than even Russia. Because, one could say that Russia already got all it wanted, what more could they demand?

Koehler's speech was generally OK, but that's like Bush appearing at the Ku Klux Klan meeting and saying to them: "Negros are not second class people, If you like It or not". That's of course not a perfect analogy, but not worse than yours about Irish in NYC.

Well, there is a difference. First of all, the KKK still has a radical, paramilitary fringe, which the BdV has not. Furthermore the BdV has even officially distanced itself from the Preussische Treuhand and its statutes accept the Oder-Neisse border as well, whereas the KKK still advocates segregation. You certainly might not like the BdV, but its democratic credentials are valid. I for one do not agree with them most of the time, but then again everybody is entitled it his or her opinion, as long as it's legal. Even Erika Steinbach.

But it is an overreaction if 40 million Poles take the BdV, which today speaks for less than 2 million people, 85% of which are just members of folkloristic or "tracht" clubs, that seriously. Because, sarcastic as it was, the comparison to the Irish is not completely unfounded.

[si tacuissem]

if I called Bill Clinton "f.potato", I would offend the whole American people, although only Democratic majority elected the man.
I suppose, you would only irritate everyone by the potato part, the f. part is no news.
The honor of the politicians is neither the honor of the country nor the honor of the people - politicians are fair game. I may criticize the home team - and I may criticize foreign ones. And so I call Chirac a weasel, Merkel not the prettiest flower in the garden, Putin a kleptokrat - and Kaczinski a potato (though I don't no which one and what for :-)

[wolf78]

(though I don't no which one and what for :-)

A minor German newspaper ("taz" / www.taz.de) once published a decidedly dadaist sartire in which it spoke of Polish potatoes and German damsons. The term stuck because of the Kaczynskis' strong reaction to the piece.

If you can read German, it can be found here: Polens neue Kartoffel - Schurken, die die Welt beherrschen wollen. Heute: Lech "Katsche" Kaczynski

It's insulting (though not more than e.g. some of Wprost's stuff on the other side of the border), but above all, it's pretty surreal.

[Alex-DV]

"but it is a historical irony that one of the original aggressor in the campaign that started WW2 (I.E. the Sept 39 invasion of Poland) still hold the same Polish territory they took in the 39 invasion"

It doesn't. Soviet Union doesn't exist any more, and Russian Federation doesn't have these former Polish territories. They belong to Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania now. And that is a real historical irony.

[dfwgator]

Do League of Expellees also apply to Koningsberg (Kaliningrad)? But wait, that was Russians who expelled them. Why don't they pick on the Russians?

[Michael81Dus]

They also pick on the Russians, and on the Czechs. And they condemn the expulsions of Poles in former East Poland by the Soviets.

And I can just shake my head about the Polish PM.

[wolf78]

In the Polish language the word potato has only one basic meaning - a very popular vegetable. However, according to a German philologist on the Polish TV, in the German language it has also another meaning. If refers to a man, it means a very primitive antiquated man, usually uneducated, etc.

No, it does not. That's simply nonsense. Of course, there's always the association of potatoes with peasants rather than academics, and there's also the German saying "Die dümmsten Bauern haben den dicksten Kartoffeln" ("The dumbest farmers have the biggest potatoes", meaning that luck can be harsh from time to time.) But besides that, potatoe is not a standard swearword in German.

But of course, I do agree that the "taz" piece was meant to be offensive and that it isn't nice to call someone a potatoe. It's just that your assumptions about the German language and the meaning of certain words are wrong ;-).

Wprost used a metaphor of the Trojan Horse. Whoever never heard of The Iliad of Homer,The Odyssey and Trojan Horse. Looks like Germans are not taught ancient classics and therefore they draw such preposterous conclusions.

I had 6 years of Latin and 3 years of Old Greek in school (besides English and Spanish), so, yes I know the classics. And if you really want, we could also continue this conversation in Latin, as I assume that you as a European conservative and Catholic are fluent in it as well ;-).

Of course the insult lay not in the metaphor itself, but in the Nazi uniform used by said magazine. But hey, that's the freedom of the press, if you can't stand it, you better get out of the game of politics.

[lizol]

Hmmmm.... let me think .... I really don't know (lol)

[macel]

> Who indoctrinated your mind with such hatred to Poland?

Wow, we're back in medieval times, ruler=country. Spieprzac, dziady.

[lizol]

Well, Frau Steinbach is just amazing!

I thought, she wouldn't be able to surprise me with anything, but I was obviously wrong.

I've just read, that in an interview for a German radio-station Deutschlandfunk she said something like (my translation):

"Poles are complaining, that the Germans don't consult with them the idea of Center Against Expulsions, whereas they do exactly the same. I can't recall any request from Poland to the German side to take a part in commemoration of the Warsaw Uprising. And one could ask: Why you don't ask us? At last it was us - the Germans - who destroyed Warsaw".

No comment.

[Grzegorz 246]

"For the most part ignore the shrill Kaczynskis and focus more on what unites us, which is the fact that we're allies in NATO and that we can both profit a lot from doing business with each other. Because if Germany "loses" jobs to Poland, Poles in return buy more German products, so it all evens out. You can't say that about China. So for the time being I think the best thing to do for Polish-German relations is to largely bypass the Kaczynski brothers and seek cooperation on a sub-national level. But that is just my opinion."

Of course I'm for cooperation, especially in business and I really don't like K. bros, but It doesn't mean that I'm on your side. Looks like you blame "evil twins". I agree with them on this issue, just like vast majority of people here and I repeat 100th time that this is your problem and how you are going to solve It depends on you.

"Oh, I'm in complete agreement with lizol about that. It was at least as much an injustice the way Stalin dealt with the Polish borders as with the German."

No. I was talking (like K in that translated speech) about Polish attitude toward ex-Polish eastern lands. We don't have such organizations and Polish government pays compensations to people, who lost property there.

"Well, there is a difference. First of all, the KKK still has a radical, paramilitary fringe, which the BdV has not. Furthermore the BdV has even officially distanced itself from the Preussische Treuhand and its statutes accept the Oder-Neisse border as well, whereas the KKK still advocates segregation."

Of course like I said any analogy is not perfect, but don't tell that the whole mess ("BdV") is so cool, innocent, folkloristic organization. Not so long ago they used to elect "authorities in exile" of those ex German lands, which could be funny If their leader was not a MEP from the ruling party, your president and government members didn't appear at their meetings etc. Now they try to look like more "European", but you may still find there a lot of shit, besides that wouldn't have happened without Polish "paranoid" reactions.

Common arguments on German sides are: they aren't important (not really, 2.5 million people, influence in politics) and "Steinbach is almost unknown in Germany" - what kind of argument is that ? It only means that Germans don't care (ignore) about the whole thing and German politicians care more about a group of elderly voters than about relations with us. In this situation, excuse me, but I don't give a damn that someone in your country is "offended" by K's words.

[Atlantic Bridge]

She said:

Steinbach: Wir fragen ja nun auch wirklich nicht, was in Warschau alles an Gedenkstätten gebaut wird. Ich kann mich nicht erinnern und mir ist nicht bekannt, dass jemals Deutschland gefragt wurde, am Gedenkort zum Warschauer Aufstand beteiligt gewesen zu sein. Man könnte ja da auch fragen, "warum fragt ihr uns nicht, denn wir haben Warschau doch damals zerstört". Deutschland hätte ja also ein gleiches legitimes Interesse daran. Es käme uns niemals in den Sinn, eine solche Forderung zu stellen.

My Translation: "We do not ask either what memorial places are being buildt in Warsaw. I can not remember and it is not common to me that Germany ever was asked to participate in the memorial for the Warsaw uprising. And it could be asked: Why you don't ask us? At last it was us - the Germans - who destroyed Warsaw. Germany would have also a legtimate interest on it. It would never cross our mind to make such a demand."

The last sentence is important. Although to my sensation this statement and the comparison between the Warsaw Uprising and the expulsion is extremely tasteless and insensitive, her argumentation is logical from her point of view. She does not accept a collective guilt of Germany and Germans. She only accepts individual guilt. Therefore it does not matter if the guilt was done during the Warsaw uprising or during the expulsion. Only the extent of individual guilt of the one who committed the crimes is important.

This is the point of view that is shared by most contemporary Germans and the source of the ongoing misunderstanding between our countries and people. We know that most of you Poles hold on to the "political correct" theory of common German guilt (that is only shared by the extreme left in Germany).

Personally I think the truth is between those poles. Of course the German heritage contains a certain responsibility to help to avoid such evil systems like nazism in Germany and elsewhere. No matter what Steinbach is saying or not. On the other hand I also see most expelled as victims of history. Maybe 20 - 30% of them were convinced nazis that recieved a earned punishment. The rest were innocent children, women and elderly people. A part of my own family left a beautiful estate in Silesia and I know for sure that no one of them ever committed war-crimes (as long as it will not turn out that Günter Grass is a member of my family:-)). I also know that most Poles who annexed former German property also were expelled by Stalin from eastern Poland.

The truth is difficult. On one hand the expelled Germans were those who triggered some of the worst crimes in history on the other hand the expulsion was a war-crime itself. The Poles were those who had no other choice. The real criminals came from Berlin and (to a lesser degree) met later in Yalta.

It is indeed funny that we - too young to be part of this part of history - are discussing those questions with such excitement after more than 50 years passed by. Steinbach is just somebody that never was involved (Babies do not count). A lobbyist and boring politician that uses the issue for her personal public relations. The same reason why Frank Zappa was shi*ting during his concerts into the corner of the stage.

As I said - my own family had to leave a nice house in Groß-Strelitz near Oppeln (Opole). We (my family and me) do not want to have anything back and we hope that the Poles make the best of the old German heritage which is still present in that area. My own impression was (I visited Silesia once) that this is the case. It is logical that there will be a special German interest in the future on the former German parts of your country. Nevertheless it is yours and nobody wants to rewrite history. On the other hand it is also impossible to oppress it. Even if some people wish that. Not so far from now somebody will build a museum for the expelled. No matter what Lech or Jaroslaw Kaczynski are saying. They lack the influence to stop it (this is also a personal problem of them - Berlin would listen to another leadership in Poland more closely but it of course your own thing who you choose as your President). Personally I think that the official Germany should do it together with Poland (maybe in a boarder town - we discussed it once). Nevertheless that are not our worst problems. Therefore we should focus on more important issues.