Posted on 06/21/2006 8:48:19 AM PDT by RDTF
Great post, bears repeating.
I would agree completely with your findings on the two scenarios. Apparently some people believe that it's OK to shoot any Iraqi on sight. It isn't. And the military goes to great lengths to instill in its people an understanding of what is right behavior and what is wrong behavior. Deliberately shooting unarmed civilians falls into the later category. For people around here to say that it's perfectly acceptable to shoot unarmed civilians is saying that anyone who doesn't do so must be stupid. But I have absolutely no doubt that if we had the ability to investigate the matter thoroughly we would find hundreds or thousands of cases where U.S. personnel put themselves in peril to avoid shooting in an situation where innocent Iraqi people might have been harmed, because that is what they are trained to do. They are the honorable ones in my view. They are the ones who do the dangerous job, day after day, within the guidelines. In my opinion they deserve all the respect and admiration this country can give them, not those who murder. In the view of others around here they would be the suckers.
37 posted on 06/21/2006 1:00:10 PM CDT by Non-Sequitur
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
Thank you for saying you aren't accusing me of prejudging them, because I most certainly am not.
That said, because we do not know for sure what has happened, it must be treated like any other crime, even if it is the UCMJ being applied and not civilian law.
If accused of a violent crime such as murder, normally the person is kept in custody, but not always. I would think that in this case, they should keep the guy confined to post at worst, until the evidence is brought to bear.
You are correct. Few of us posting here have walked in their boots. But, as I said, since we do not know what happened or why these men are held in confinement, we have two choices:
One: It is Political Correctness run amok. This is always a possibility. I spent my time in the military, so I know how everybody is made to wear size nine boots no matter what. And there is no lack of beauracracies in the military that are too slothful, inert and resistant to outside influences such as the truth. Personally, I keep this in mind, but in egregious cases with a high level of publicity, I tend to think it is less likely. I just think abuses like men being confined in shackles for some idiotic infringement of the UCMJ is more likely to happen when it is some poor sad sack in a backwater unit.
Two: The other possibility is that there is more to this than meets the eye. Did the the guys conspire to cover something up, and their story fell apart when they were interviewed at length by the NIS? (I know from personal experience that the NIS HATES that...if they think you are lying, they can make life even more miserable than it is. I saw it happen to a guy one time. He was accused of throwing a intake screen for an airplane off of the side of the ship in a fit of anger...to this day I don't know if he did it or not, but they caught him in a lie about where he said he was at the time) Did they threaten anyone to cover it up? Was it an egregious act of murder that doesn't leave a lot of room for misinterpretation? My point is, the Marines are run by Marines, many of whom HAVE seen combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. Given the culture of the Marines, they are going to be sympathetic unless they think the guy did something that is going to reflect poorly on the service, or is counter to their standards. Then, they can be merciless. Nothing is worse than being a Marine in the Brig, or so I am told.
I agree that the bulk of the accusations eminating from the Middle East against our men are false. But I have a suspicion that if the Marine Corps is treating these men this way, they must know something I don't.
I admit I am torn, I don't know if I would rather find out this guy intentionally killed an innocent man than to find out the Marines would do this to their own men on a flimsy pretext. They are both pretty bad outcomes.
I haven't been in their shoes, you haven't, and I doubt that Protagoras has either. But I have no doubt that the team of Marines tasked with investigating these charges DID include men who had been in their shoes at some time during their career. And that they took that experience into account as they conducted their investigation. They are the ones that determined that the conduct of the accused was outside of the acceptable guidelines and did, in fact, warrant murder charges.
Until that time, you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
A case of the pot calling the kettle black. IMHO, of course.
I will defend them at any and every opportunity over some islamofascist maggots in a cat box in the Middle East.
As well as against HQ, USMC apparently. Or don't you trust the Marines to conduct a fair investigation?
"I know where you haven't been."
Then where have I been oh great one?
"I told you son, I was a boy when I was your age."
Sounds to me like old-timers disease is kicking in son.
"I read lots of posts, and I comment on the imbecilic ones. Like yours."
Your comments were derisive and insulting and looking for a fight son, so you got one. Once again, if you don't like what I have to say, it's real simple, skip over the post.
If you really want my record as a Marine, I joined in 1975 and medically retired in 1991.
Oh here's another one who knows where I've been.
Do tell oh great NS. Where have I been the last 20 years.
Until you can answer that one brainiac your comments are no more valid that Protagoras.
So let's hear it NS. Where have I been, what have I done for the last 20 years. You know it all smartass, give us the benefit of your all knowing wisdom.
I respect your opinion, rl, as a fellow former sailor. I would recommend that you do some reseach on Lt. Ilario Pantano. It's the reason that I'm not ready to lean toward the side of guilt, just as I'm not ready to lean toward the side of guilt in the Haditha debacle. Just as I don't believe that the soldiers currently serving time for Abu Ghraib deserved anything more than a good butt chewing by a superior - NOT for what they did, but for letting it become public knowledge and taking pictures to support any allegations against them.
I hope they don't, and that these lads are acquitted. And I wonder where the scores of publicity seeking Johnny Cochran types are when little people are accused.
I agree with the whole Abu Ghraib thing. It was a travesty. And the Haditha thing stinks to high heaven. I know about Lt. Ilario Pantano, and while it should have never even gone to a trial, I think the system worked there.
And just to be clear, I am not leaning either way in this case...I don't know anything about it. But the Marines do, and they seem serious about it. I am hoping justice will be served, and if those guys are innocent, they are completely exonerated.
I really am depending on the Marines to do the right thing.
And, by the way, thanks for your service.
I honestly could not care less where you've been for the last 20 years. However if during that period you took an Iraqi civilian from his home, tied his hands behind his back, shot him, and then planted a gun on him like these Marines are accused of doing, then would you like my opinion on what you should be doing for the next 20 years?
Is this a case of rape?
Once again we have all been suckered by the "unknown sources have said" crowd The seven Marines and a sailor still haven't been charged.
CNN and the rest of the newsies are wishfully thinking they are.
My comment don't concern this incident.
I haven't been suckered into anything.
If you don't know then why come in here saying you do?
It's too bad that people come in here and jump on others who have a stated position on their support for the Marines involved. I will not sit by and let what happened to our returning sons and daughters in vietnam happen here.
Especially when there's no evidence to support the allegations.
Do I support what our troops do without question?
Damned right I do. If you and Pos can't handle that, then that's your problem, not mine.
If you really want my record as a Marine, I joined in 1975 and medically retired in 1991.
Since you bugged out in 1991 and the war didn't start until long after that, I know where you haven't been, despite your pretending you were there and therefore have some special insight.
Then where have I been oh great one?
You couldn't possibly be as obtuse as you seem.
Sounds to me like old-timers disease is kicking in son.
I am an old timer, boy.
As to your record, it looks as if you joined after one problem was over and bugged out before another began. Probably a coincidence.
Show me where I pretended I was there.
Frankly you can think what you want. You've already proven what a brain dead moron you are.
So are you saying that incidents like this should not be investigated?
Especially when there's no evidence to support the allegations.
What makes you say there is no evidence to support the allegations? The Marines just conducted an in-depth investigation and they determined that charges are warranted. Are you saying that the U.S. military in general and the Marines in particular are incapable of conducting a fair and impartial investigation? That the military is out to railroad anyone it can and will charge servicemen with a capital crime when there is no evidence to support such charges? Is that what you want us to believe?
Damned right I do. If you and Pos can't handle that, then that's your problem, not mine.
So if the Marines are tried and convicted you will still support their actions and say that they were right?
I never said I would say they were right.
I said I support my brethren regardless.
If they did in fact MURDER someone (which I seriously doubt) then they need to pay the fiddler. Just like everyone else.
But they have been through hell and I will not sit here and judge their actions not knowing what happened or what they had gone through.
Sometimes even murder is justifiable. Only God knows what really happened.
Do most marines have trouble with reading comprehension and following the conversation? The other guy on the thread who claims to have been a marine has that problem, I'm just wondering if it's a trend.
I never said that. And we shall see if a marine is man enough to admit he erred and apologizes,,,
In the mean time, do you, like several other posters on this thread claim that ANYTHING, anything at all, is acceptable for our soldiers in a war zone ?
It's a question, not an accusation.
WOW! A rare moment of clarity!
For post after post people have been trying to get you to admit that. And admit that your comments that, ANYTHING, NO MATTER WHAT, is acceptable, is nonsense.
OK, in a post, you said...."When you have been in the shoes of these men, fighting these people then I'll consider what you have to say as being valid."
That is a claim that somehow what you have to say is valid, but mine isn't because I wasn't "in their shoes, fighting these people".
So, since you have now admitted you bugged out before the war started and have not "been in their shoes, fighting these people" , I guess your suggestion that you were there is as nonsensical as the rest of your posts.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.