Center tanks just don't detonate on their own, lil' spark or no. It was a missile.
Posted on 04/21/2006 11:14:52 AM PDT by Hal1950
NEWS MEDIA UPDATE - FIRST CIRCUIT - Freedom of Information
During nearly six years of litigation, investigators released nearly 600 pages of documents to the families of victims of the TWA flight that exploded shortly after takeoff from New York in 1996.
Families of some of the 230 victims killed aboard 1996's deadly TWA Flight 800 will not receive additional documents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a federal appeals court has decided.
Ruling that the FBI's search satisfied its obligation to conduct a "reasonable" search for documents related to the families' request, the U.S. Court of Appeals in Boston (1st Cir.) affirmed a lower court in determining on March 31 that the FBI fulfilled its duty to search for records.
Following the July 17, 1996, crash, a group of the victims' family members and other supporters teamed to independently investigate. Seeking information on behalf of the group, Graeme Sephton filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the FBI in 1998 and filing the lawsuit in 2000 after the request went unanswered. Sephton, an engineering professor at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, became involved with the case as a "concerned citizen" and over the nearly six years of litigation, it has become his hobby, he said.
"It seemed to me that a thing like Flight 800 where so many people had been killed and where there were hundreds of witnesses, that there was a good chance in a land where there was a watchdog media that we should be able to at least get it looked at very carefully and reevaluate it, Sephton said. "It turned out to be not so easy."
The group is considering whether to petition the entire First Circuit panel of judges to rehear the case, but Daniel J. Stotter, who represents the group, said a favorable ruling is unlikely. The two issues troubling him are that the court effectively held that an agency need not answer a FOIA complaint and that in determining the FBI conducted a "reasonable" search, it did not require the agency to affirmatively state it had "searched in all places reasonably likely" for the documents.
"It was like they were looking for forks and opened the plate drawer and said 'no forks here' but refused to open the fork drawer to look for them," Stotter said of the three-judge panel. "They refused to declare that they searched in all places reasonably likely, and instead said they searched in one place really carefully."
The Paris-bound Boeing 747 crashed about 10 minutes after its departure from New York, killing all on board. Several federal agencies investigated the crash, including the FBI and the National Transportation Safety Board, and concluded that the crash was likely caused by an explosion in one of the fuel tanks.
Sephton's group requested forensic information from the FBI under FOIA, which located 21 pages of documents but withheld their release citing an ongoing investigation. Once the families sued, the FBI eventually gave up the 21 pages and added to it 550 pages of additional documents. The suit persisted because Sephton and the other family members and supporters had seen in the released documents mention of related documents which the FBI refused to turn over, Stotter said.
"What's clearly missing is that the agency referenced reports of tests or studies on the location of foreign objects . . . but we couldn't get those tests," he said.
The FBI produced sworn statements from several employees describing the searches they had conducted and explaining their processes. The U.S. District Court in Springfield, Mass., determined these searches met the "reasonableness" requirement, and ruled for the FBI in March 2005.
Calling the district court's opinion "cogent," the appeals court affirmed the ruling, agreeing that the FBI had satisfied its legal duty to conduct a "reasonable" search for the records sought. The appeals court quoted the lower court's opinion that its review of the FBI's statements collectively describe, "in a detailed and nonconclusory fashion, the structure of the agency's file system, the scope of the search performed, and the method by which it was conducted."
The appeals court's acceptance "with praise" of the lower court's analysis makes it "very difficult to get it reconsidered" by the entire court, Stotter said. "It's so uphill at this point, we can't really count on any changes to the outcome of this case."
Department of Justice spokeswoman Christina Sterling declined to comment, citing a DOJ policy prohibiting department lawyers from commenting on lawsuits.
In a related case, the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. recently ruled similarly on a FOIA case related to Flight 800. Accuracy in Media, a media watchdog group, sued the National Transportation Safety Board, challenging its search for investigatory flight records.
AIM had asked for 14 categories of records from NTSB, some of which were produced in full while others were in redacted form and still others were withheld under FOIA exemptions and the Privacy Act. AIM did not challenge the use of the exemptions or the Privacy Act, but instead argued that NTSB's search was inadequate because it felt certain records "must" exist, and that the search had been conducted in "bad faith."
The court ruled that the NTSB had conducted a reasonable search and AIM's challenge as to the existence of additional records was "mere speculation," referring to the group's quest as a conspiracy theory. The court also dismissed the bad faith argument citing a lack of evidence.
(Sephton v. FBI; Accuracy in Media v. Nat'l Transportation Safety Bd., Requesters' counsel: Daniel J. Stotter, Bromley Newton, LLP, Eugene, Ore.) -- CZ
It has all the earmarks of a coverup. Who was on that plane that somebody in government wanted assassinated?
What about the witnesses who saw trails of red go up toward the plane?
Just the statement it exploded after taking off doesn't make sense.
I have always thought that they could not admit it was shot down, because releasing that would absolutely destroy the passenger airline business. Just my humble guess.
LOL! Rather er stupid way to assassinate someone don't you think?
....anyone have a link to the hilarious CIA animation clip where the plane explodes and then climbs 3000 feet up?
I could use a Friday afternoon laugh...
Exactly. But I think Clinton played a huge part in the cover-up. He never wanted to deal with terrorism.
Too many people witnessed the explosion. The government has to play CYA. It's disgusting to think that happens in America, but with all that the government has been doing lately it's looking more like status quo.
....somebody in government ......
Hillary/bubba
Well this essentially renders FOIA obsolete. If judges can pick and choose when FOIA can be used after federal agencies stonewall, it becomes meaningless. There's no need to squelch this information. Is there?
I was raised to respect the FBI. I enjoyed reading books about the agency and thought highly of it.
Over the last 14 years, that respect and trust has been utterly destroyed. It's so bad that you even have to question the courts these days. Our justice system has certainly gone down hill.
I tend to agree with you. My son lives in NY city. He says he still quivers when he hears a plane overhead.
So I guess they're never going to release the video.
I was one of the original FIRO investigators and still have my copy of the original radar video tape.
Airliner center fuel tanks spontaneously explode all the time. It's a well known natural phenomenon.
Just ask James Kalstrom or the NTSB.
Great graphics!
That's about every 90 seconds.
Watch your back.If people knew the inner workings of our own Govt.,they would not sleep at night.
bttt
LOL! Who did not know the fed gov would want to hide the facts concerning this matter?
What does FIRO stand for?
Even if I am arrested, they will never be able to confiscate the video tape of the radar of when TWA 800 was destroyed.
Why is this important? Because our government has lied to us, and eventually, the truth will finally be found.
I am just a small, but dedicated player in a quest for factual knowledge about what actually happened that day.
How and why the aircraft was destroyed will remain a mystery, but our government has not been honest with the American public. That alone, made me very curious.
Flight 800 Independent Researchers Organization (FIRO)
Oh, okay. Thanks.
Is this appeals court Clinton-appointed/endorsed/approved?
"f judges can pick and choose when FOIA can be used after federal agencies stonewall, it becomes meaningless"
This means that Congress can go home and we can use the capital building for a museum or a library. The judges are making the law.
Factor in the dollar-sucking lawyers, and I think this country has a government of money, by money and for the money.
"Who was on that plane that somebody in government wanted assassinated"
"LOL! Rather er stupid way to assassinate someone don't you think?"
No. Would that consideration stop some of the people we have in this world?
at the time I assumed clinton didn't want his weak military/foreign policy record being attacked before the 96 election, and thus the issue was squelched.
These days I am more inclined to think that the US has a no-acknowledgement policy regarding terrorism in the US, given how effectively the norman OK bombing event was squelched.
I do not have any pet theories on how TWA 800 was destroyed and have kept myself open to all factual information. Any source, government or civilian that can provide factual information, will get my attention.
Because of my person interest in the radar data obtained when TWA 800 was destroyed, I eventually got a job at Lockheed Martin. As a Software Engineer, my job at Lock-Mart was creating new software for their Air Traffic Control Radars.
I learned many details about ATC radars and how to interpret the information on the TWA 800 radar video tape.
Did it solve any mysterious question? NO!
However, because of TWA 800, I helped create a better ATC radar system for American aviation. Today, symbolic weather information can be displayed directly upon the ATC radar screens and aircraft can be vectored around potential problem areas.
In a funny way, TWA 800 is directly responsible for making today's flights safer from severe weather.
The Klintoon Govt cover-up is complete!
I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I don't play one on TV. Still, nothing in the world will ever convice me that this wasn't the first shot in the Muslim-Western War, and that Bill Clinton and Jamie Gorlick were responsible for the failure to prevent.
Yes, of course it would.
That last line is about as good a description as I can think of these days.
I understand that this theory is a joke amongst those involved in airline security/safety. It seems that the explosion could not ever be emulated as the investigators claim.
I hope you also understood that I was being sarcastic.
While I will not dispute what you are doing, how does it feel that all these groups are coming out saying 9/11 wasn't a plot or a coverup?
Man, there's a lot of black helicopters flying today.
At least two other aircraft have experienced center wing fuel tank explosions in the last dozen years. In 1990, a Philippines Airlines 737 plane exploded while being pushed back from the gate. Sometime later, a similar fate met a Thailand Airlines 737 plane while standing at the gate.
"In each center fuel tank explosion, the tanks were almost empty, and the remaining fuel was heated by use of air conditioning packs located under the center wing fuel tank," Kauffman said. "If the heated fuel vapors in the center wing tanks reached their flash point temperatures, they would become explosive in the presence of a sufficient ignition source."
Flt 800 had similar conditions.
At least two other aircraft have experienced center wing fuel tank explosions in the last dozen years. In 1990, a Philippines Airlines 737 plane exploded while being pushed back from the gate. Sometime later, a similar fate met a Thailand Airlines 737 plane while standing at the gate.
"In each center fuel tank explosion, the tanks were almost empty, and the remaining fuel was heated by use of air conditioning packs located under the center wing fuel tank," Kauffman said. "If the heated fuel vapors in the center wing tanks reached their flash point temperatures, they would become explosive in the presence of a sufficient ignition source."
Flt 800 had similar conditions.
I'm simply repeating what I was told by persons whose jobs placed them in a position to know more than most. They were noncommittal on their own theories, but did not buy the official explanation.
Might be that you are or were also employed in a security capacity of an airline and are an authority. If so, I'll defer to your knowledge.
Yes, I did. Just trying to add to the point.
Finally found an article similar to the one Aviation Week & Space Technology ran a couple years ago. There have been 17 fuel tank explosions in jetliners since the 707.
The three (relatively) recent belly tank explosions had things in common:
Snip
Three CWT Explosions of Doom
May 11, 1990, Manila, Philippines—Shortly after pushback, the center wing tank (CWT) exploded on this Philippine Airlines Boeing 737, killing eight people. The CWT had not been filled since March 9, 1990. Air-conditioning (A/C) packs had been running on the ground before pushback (approximately 30 to 45 minutes). Ambient air was 95° F (35° C).
March 3, 2001, Bangkok, Thailand—Center wing tank explosion on Thai Airways International B737 was followed 18 minutes later by an explosion in the right wing tank. Residual fuel was in CWT. Air-conditioning packs had been running continuously since the airplane’s previous flight, including about 40 minutes on the ground. Ambient air temperature was in the 90s (degrees F).
July 17, 1996, New York—CWT exploded on this TWA B747-100 shortly after takeoff from JFK International Airport, killing all 230 aboard. CWT contained a slight amount of residual fuel. A/C packs had been running on the ground for 2.5 hours before takeoff. Ambient temperature was 82° F (28° C).
In the exhaustive TWA investigation, a bomb was ruled out for lack of the telltale microscopic evidence of pitting and "gas wash." The tank’s front bulkhead, blown forward, was a clear sign that the fuel/air vapors in the tank exploded. On the Thai jet, the CWT forward bulkhead also was blown forward.
Moreover, the sound signature on the cockpit voice recorded (CVR) of the Thai jet was similar to that of the PAL jet in 1990. Neither recording included the precipitating sound of an initiating explosion that may have ignited the fuel tank vapors.
Whole article here:
http://www.aviationtoday.com/sia/20010601.htm
Exactly. But I think Clinton played a huge part in the cover-up. He never wanted to deal with terrorism.""
My thoughts exactly.
Clinton cannot even deal with Hillary on the warpath.....
"Who was on that plane that somebody in government wanted assassinated"
"LOL! Rather er stupid way to assassinate someone don't you think?"
No. Would that consideration stop some of the people we have in this world?""
Have you forgotten Ron Brown?????
If Flt 800 had just taken off, how could it have almost empty tanks????
""Exactly. But I think Clinton played a huge part in the cover-up. He never wanted to deal with terrorism.""
Bingo
1. he was afarid that confronting terrorism would hurt the economy and stock market-Dick Morris
2. He was afraid that Bob Dole's war hero status would cause people to rally to Dole if we ended up going to war ( i disagree, but that what Willy thought)
This is NORMAL. You only put fuel in the center tank if you absolutely have to. You always want the fuel in the wings. Hard to explain, but the plane flies more efficiently with fuel distributed throughout the wings rather than in the belly.
Notice one of the 737s that blew up hadn't had the center tank filled in like a month? Again, you only use that center tank if you have to for range or fuel reserve reasons, and if you do, that's the tank you drain first.
My dh is a military and an airline pilot...so thank you :)
""LOL! Rather er stupid way to assassinate someone don't you think?"
No. Would that consideration stop some of the people we have in this world?""
Have you forgotten Ron Brown?????"
Thank you. That's the one I couldn't remember.
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