BATF Attack at Waco - February 28, 1993

Frontline - PBS ^ | 1995 | WGBH

[AllThrustNoVector]

Chronology February 28, 1993 - At about 9:30 a.m. agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms attempt to execute arrest and search warrants against David KORESH and the Branch Davidian compound. Gunfire erupts. Four ATF agents are killed and 16 are wounded. An undetermined number of Davidians are killed and injured. Within a few hours, the FBI becomes the lead agency for resolving the standoff. Jeff JAMAR is named the on-site commander. By the afternoon, advance units of the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) arrive, and telephone conversations are under way between KORESH, Steve SCHNEIDER, and Wayne MARTIN on one side and the ATF's Jim CAVANAUGH and Waco Police Lt. Larry LYNCH on the other. KORESH discloses that he has been wounded in the hip and left wrist. KORESH is allowed to broadcast his religious teachings on Dallas radio KRLD and does a CNN telephone interview. Michael SCHROEDER, a Branch Davidian, is killed while he tries to return to the main building. Texas Rangers begin an investigation but are barred by the FBI from continuing. At about 5:30 p.m., JAMAR arrives at Waco and chooses Byron SAGE of the FBI as chief negotiator. President CLINTON follows events closely throughout the day.

[Yasotay]

Did the poster get suspended or banned for posting this article?

[Kelly_2000]

"Pastor Koresh and his congregation were at home on a Sunday morning preparing to go to religious services. Thugs attacked them with automatic weapons killing some of the congregation. They did their best to defend themselves from the attack.

51 Days later, other thugs murdered the congregation, burned their home and church, and bulldozed the evidence of the murders. To date, none of their murders have been brought to justice.

OK agreed the attack was illegal but lets not paint the guy out to be an innocent, he was a nut job of the highest order that courted trouble with the law at the expense of his "congregation".

I agree the attack that killed the children and women was illegal and so far unresolved in terms of investigations or any justice being seen to be done.

[Centurion2000]

Even if Koresh wasn't violating any Federal laws, he was still telling his followers to prepare for Armageddon and was helping them to do it. Even if FBI and ATF had never acted, sooner or later Koresh and his kooks would have become terrorists.

So now the possibility that someone might become a terrorist is justification for burning 51 Christians, women and children to death ?

[Yasotay]

What happens when the FBI labels you a terrorist?

What happens when false warrants are sworn....

Then the government publicly slanders your name....

Then uses the Patriot Act to plant evidence against you....

Then use their Crime Lab to falsify evidence...

Then finally kill you ....

Koresh was NO terrorist ... he was NO Manson .... Koresh and the BDs were and are (those that are still alive) American Citizens. What the ATF and FBI did was and is a felony violation of most of the laws of Texas and the US Constitution.

[sit-rep]

I was going to ask the same thing... If so, I have no Idea why...

[RightWhale]

One reason we haven't seen a repeat

It might be that the arrogance of the leadership in DC was overplayed in Waco and they know that much of the country viewed the whole incident as distinctly un-American. Cell phones or not, that is not the kind of thing the American people will allow regardless of what they think of Koresh.

[Yasotay]

I saw nothing on this thread that deserved getting suspended or banned, there is always the chance of something else on another thread. Getting banned on FR for posting about Waco is just wrong. I thought he did a good job.

[sit-rep]

One of two things I suspect... One is, as you stated, it may have been something on another thread, or, it may be he was a banned poster that found a loop hole and got back in with another moniker...

I have questions about moderating here, and although I am no "model citizen" in JR's eyes, I still scratch my head from time to time. But heck... I ain't gonna raise my voice too much on the deal. For one, I do not know how thick the ice is I'm standing on(lol), and the other is the fact that I ran/run a forum and it ain't no picnic at times...

[Yasotay]

Points taken and understood .... I think I hear some cracking ..... :)

[sit-rep]

lol...

[SauronOfMordor]

One reason we haven't seen a repeat is the wide spread of cell phones. Or can they knock out cell phones, I wonder?

I would imagine that the feds can tell the cell outfits to turn off cell towers in range of an "incident".

[SauronOfMordor]

Most of the law-abiding Christians I know don't hoard guns and prepare for doomsday. Koresh was a nutcase.

I remember hearing the number of firearms they were talking about, vs the number of families there. The average firearms per family was less than what I have.

Plus one of the familes there were federally licensed gun dealers

[SauronOfMordor]

I didn't say it was the government's role...but a cult is what Koresh and his fellow nutjobs were. I mean, come on. The guy thought he was Jesus Christ. A true Christian church would be promising salvation, not death and doom. Show me the difference between Koresh and his kind, and an Islamic cleric who wants the 12th Imam to climb out of his well.

As long as I harm no one, I have the Constitutional right to believe that I really am Sauron of Mordor and that my poker buddy is the Immortal Cthulhu

If the Bill of Rights does not protect me in my non-violent proclaimation that I am the whole freaking Pantheon of Asgard, without some federal maniacs shooting up my home, then the Constitution means NOTHING!

[SauronOfMordor]

Interesting point. It seems they were more afraid of the NRA and militia types than the Islamofascists themselves

With good reason.

When they tried to steal the 2000 election for Gore thru vote fraud, I partook in a few anti-Gore demonstrations. One occured in Philly, where a bunch of freepers got together on a street with signs. Philly being the heavily Dem town that it is, you might have expected some union thugs to try to bust some heads. But "shall issue" concealed carry had passed some years back, and from just the people I know, we had more firepower than most SWAT entry teams. We were not bothered

Another demonstration occurred in the state capitol. I had put together a poster with images from the Net showing vote fraud in Broward county. The TV news babe chatted with me a bit. She was interested in my poster. She then noticed that the handiest piece of cardboard I had as a backing was a bullet-riddled target board

I think more than a few of them realized that a blatent election-theft stodd a good chance of triggering insurrection. They didn't want to win that much

[SUSSA]

Whether or not Pastor Koresh was a nut job has no bearing on his, and his congregation’s, murders. Most of the information that makes people think he was a nut job is false or distorted in any case. Just one example of that is the claim that he said he was Jesus Christ. What he said was “If I did that I would have to be Jesus Christ.”

Obviously, he wasn’t claiming to be Jesus Christ. The government twisted his words to demonize him.

Another thing is we do not murder nut jobs for being nut jobs. Michael Moore and Sean Hannity are nut jobs as are any number of people you and I could both name. We don’t murder them for it.

Nor do we murder people because some thug with a badge doesn’t like their religion. Catholics believe the Pope is Christ’s vicar. Millions of non Catholics believe he isn’t. We don’t murder Catholics because some thug with a badge believes their religion is wrong. Just as we don’t let a Catholic with a badge murder Baptists or Mormons because he thinks their religion is false.

As you say, the raid and the murders were illegal. Nothing Pastor Koresh, or the other victims, did justified murdering them.

[quietolong]

See how Easily you to can become a terrorist.

Barney Blasts Gay Marriage Foes
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1549566/posts

>>> “Basically, they’re the disturbers of the civic peace,” <<<<

And yet people want to give more power to the goverment.

You must remember there is a heavy infestation of party (both sides), government, alphabet soup agencies & Zion Zealot Spin doctors and poll pushers on FR. Specially
after 911 and really during & after the 04 election.

You can read the old FR threads and see the difference.

[Kelly_2000]

"Whether or not Pastor Koresh was a nut job has no bearing "

I agree

"Another thing is we do not murder nut jobs for being nut jobs."

Agreed again, you are preaching to the choir btw I am a conservative libertarian

"Nothing Pastor Koresh, or the other victims, did justified murdering them."

Agreed but I have a caveat, I do not believe that Koresh was innocent of blame, he chose to make a stand to make a political point or religious point, to the government or whoever was calling the shots at that time. This was on the basis of freedom of speech or liberty etc. protecting these principles again whatever...

he had to realize that he was putting women and children at risk when he did this. What happened to the women and children on that day was wrong no one can argue that, people should be accountable for it. BUT he shares some responsibility for the escalation of danger to those within his organization and care.

[SUSSA]

Think about the position he was in. They were quietly getting ready for church on a Sunday morning when attacked. He was badly wounded and several of his people were killed.

The congregation repelled the thugs’ first assault. Then as a sign of good will, they allowed the attackers to pick up the dead and wounded thugs unmolested. At which point the attackers moved the media out to a place where they could only get telephoto shots of what was happening to the victims.

Anyone who left was dragged off in handcuffs and paraded in front of the media in orange jumpsuits as the thugs lied about the attack and about the congregation and called the victims murders. The attackers also murdered one of the members who was trying to get in to be with his family. They mounted a siege and psychological attack on the congregation that went on 24/7.

Would you be anxious to come out and put yourself in the hands of people like that? Would you, just maybe, think that Americans might be getting their guns and gathering in groups to come save you? Or that they might, at the very least be gathering to come protest the vicious attack?

In hindsight, we know what happened. Americans sat on their hands and whined as the thugs murdered more than 80 men, women and children. Sitting in that church surrounded by the scum that murdered 4 friends and relatives, would you have thought you were better off coming out?

[al_c]

So what did Koresh do that made him and his followers deserve roasting

Has it been proven beyond reasonable doubt what started the fire? Man, that building went up so fast that there had to be a lot of accellerant in there. Koresh was a nutjob and did indeed have an end-time mentality. I wouldn't put it past him to be the one behind the fire.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Me neither. The point isn't the finale, but the prelude was so badly done that things were going to develop badly no matter what. The "Will To Martydom" isn't just for Islam anymore (never was.)