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An Empty Amendment
Washington Times ^ | 9 November 2005 | Washington Times Editorial

Posted on 11/09/2005 5:07:14 PM PST by concretebob

A bipartisan group of senators has attacked the president's intention to veto any legislation that includes Sen. John McCain's so-called anti-torture amendment. They claim that failure to make clear U.S. interrogation policy tarnishes not only our international standing, but also subverts the very idea of America.

(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crazytalkexpress; dofus; dofuss; dufuss; interrogate; interrogation; maroon; mccain; moron; moroon; senate; terrorist; wot
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The editorial board of the Washington Times weighs in on SA 1977.
1 posted on 11/09/2005 5:07:16 PM PST by concretebob
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To: ALlRightAllTheTime; armymarinemom; tgslTakoma; Justanobody; 3D-JOY; Live free or die; Landry Fan; ..

PING


2 posted on 11/09/2005 5:08:04 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob

All the amendment does is reiterate the Army Field Manual's rule on treatment of detainees/prisoners. It sets standards; it doesn't "coddle" the terrorists anymore than it does any other POWs/detainees that we've captured in the past.


3 posted on 11/09/2005 5:09:42 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! --kellynla)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

It also specifically references the 5th 8th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution.


4 posted on 11/09/2005 5:11:20 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob

We're gonna have to slap the dirty little Jap
And Uncle Sam's the guy who can do it
We'll skin the streak of yellow from this sneaky little fellow
And he'll think a cyclone hit him when he's thru it
We'll take the double crosser to the old woodshed
We'll start on his bottom and go to his head
When we get thru with him he'll wish that he was dead
We gotta slap the dirty little Jap

We're gonna have to slap the dirty little Jap
And Uncle Sam's the guy who can do it
The Japs and all their hooey will be changed into chop suey
And the rising sun will set when we get thru it
Their alibi for fighting is to save their face
For ancestors waiting in celestial space
We'll kick their precious face down to the other place
We gotta slap the dirty little Jap

We're gonna have to slap the dirty little Jap
And Uncle Sam's the guy who can do it
We'll murder Hirohito, massacre that slob Benito
Hang'em with that Shickle gruber when we're thru it
We'll search the highest mountain for the tallest tree
To build us a hanging post for the evil three
We'll call in all our neighbors, let'em know their free
We gotta slap the dirty little Jap

Times have changed, eh?


5 posted on 11/09/2005 5:13:40 PM PST by Jim Noble (Non, je ne regrette rien)
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To: concretebob

OK, never mind. After reading the editorial, I disavow any and all knowledge of the previous comment made under my screen name. :-)


6 posted on 11/09/2005 5:14:11 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! --kellynla)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
SEC. __. PROHIBITION ON CRUEL, INHUMAN, OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT OF PERSONS UNDER CUSTODY OR CONTROL OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

(a) In General.--No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.

] (b) Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose any geographical limitation on the applicability of the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment under this section.

(c) Limitation on Supersedure.--The provisions of this section shall not be superseded, except by a provision of law enacted after the date of the enactment of this Act which specifically repeals, modifies, or supersedes the provisions of this section.

(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.--In this section, the term "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984.

7 posted on 11/09/2005 5:15:36 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob
A bipartisan group of senators has attacked the president's intention to veto any legislation that includes Sen. John McCain's so-called anti-torture amendment.

They can save their ire. Bush hasn't vetoed anything since he got into office.

8 posted on 11/09/2005 5:16:07 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

hehehe...Disavowance is accepted and duly noted..


9 posted on 11/09/2005 5:16:18 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob

So is McCain's office the suspected source of the secret
CIA prison system leak?

I can understand McCain's personal bias on the subject, but:

1. He needs to worry about our enemies, not us, and

2. There is no excuse for leaking, if it was one of his
staffers that did it.


10 posted on 11/09/2005 5:18:49 PM PST by Boundless
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To: Neets; Darksheare; scott0347; timpad; KangarooJacqui; The Scourge of Yazid; Conspiracy Guy; ...

PING


11 posted on 11/09/2005 5:20:34 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: Boundless
So is McCain's office the suspected source of the secret CIA prison system leak?

I have not heard one way or another.
Would not surprise me.

12 posted on 11/09/2005 5:22:15 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: Boundless
McCain is positioning himself for a run in 08, and needs the soft on terrorist crowd to get it.
IMAO
13 posted on 11/09/2005 5:24:04 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

The problem is the word "degrading" and even "torture" does not mean the same things to all people. Consider Dick the Turban's use of the words in reference to Gitmo. Sorry....but there is NO torture going on in Gitmo...nothing close to it, yet he was out there comparing our soldiers to Nazis and Stalin's goons.

The other problem is this: It's not that we want to use torture...there are safeguards right NOW to avoid that. BUT, why should we tell our ENEMIES that we WON'T use it???? The fear of the unknown is what will make these people talk. IF they KNOW that nothing will physically happen to them, they won't talk!!!


14 posted on 11/09/2005 5:32:14 PM PST by t2buckeye
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To: concretebob

""no individual in the custody or under the physical control of the [U.S.] Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.""

This would be a great victory for the libs and Mcain. From what I understand, the word 'Degrading' is subject to 'cultural sensitivities', and thus no interrogation techniques could be used on the Islamic terrorists.


15 posted on 11/09/2005 5:35:33 PM PST by death2tyrants
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To: concretebob

The best thing that could happen to McNut is for the President to veto the bill. It would send a message to McNut that he is close to being labeled a liberal and should be kick out of the Party, if that could be done. He is a traitor to the Party. Nothing more than a glory seeking nitwit. If this nut thinks this will get him nominated at the Republican Convention for President, he is sadly mistaken.


16 posted on 11/09/2005 5:51:19 PM PST by Logical me (Oh, well!!!)
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To: concretebob
In front of the whole world, Washington is noisily arguing the particulars of Muslim interrogation, and conceding a huge propaganda victory to our enemies in the process. Rarely has there been such an unwise public debate.

The real problem with this amendment is that it appears to confirm that the U.S. armed forces tortue prisoners, in violation of miltary law and regulations. (If it were not so, why the need for the amendment?) That tarnishes our image and gives our enemies credibility they do not deserve.

John McCain has betrayed his country and the men and women who serve in uniform. He should be ashamed of himself.

17 posted on 11/09/2005 5:51:52 PM PST by Logophile
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To: concretebob

Part of a song sung in WWII.

Hitler says we are the master race
and we'll spit, we'll spit
right in the furhers face.

We don't touture and we need no special law to tell us not to.


18 posted on 11/09/2005 5:57:33 PM PST by calex59
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To: Logophile
A snowstorm of emails and FAXes would go a long way to show these terrorist coddling enablers that the American people don't care how we are protected..as long as we are.
If a terrorist is captured in this country, preparing to build, place or detonate any device capable of mass murder, he should be put in a pit with snapping turtles, (preferably the alligator snapper) and allowed to speak his mind.
But that's just me..
19 posted on 11/09/2005 6:01:06 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: death2tyrants
This amendment also reduces terrorist activity to the level of bank robbery.
It criminalizes terrorism.
Lets see, didn't someone try that already?
Oh yeah, klintoon and co.
1993
WTC
So a terrorist knows he will be treated like a US citizen if he gets caught trying to topple two skyscrapers and kill 10,000 people.
Or gets caught after he has succeeded.
20 posted on 11/09/2005 6:06:29 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob

"....tarnishes not only our international standing...."

As if I give a rat's butt what our standing is internationally.


21 posted on 11/09/2005 6:07:54 PM PST by no dems (43 muscles to smile, 17 to frown, two to pull a trigger; I'm lazy and tired of smiling.)
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To: concretebob
I think Sen Dufus and his cohorts amendment should have something added to it in addition to prohibiting torturing illegal combatants held anywhere in the world by any government (if I phrased it properly).

I think it should be changed to state that every US citizen should wear a bullseye to make it easier for terrorists to kill them. Clothing that contrasts with the background should also be mandated to give the terrorists a fair chance.

Adequate funds should also be provided to provide them with proper, well prepared rations and clean linen. All cells should be equipped with a functioning thermostat. A medical practitioner should be available 24 hours per day for their exclusive use with specialists available for consultation in case of illness or injury.

Suggestion boxes should be available in every cell. IMHO.
22 posted on 11/09/2005 6:09:21 PM PST by Citizen Tom Paine (An old sailor sends)
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To: no dems

Great tagline..better than mine actually..I'm so jealous..


23 posted on 11/09/2005 6:12:43 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
I actually had that idea after Malvo and Muhammad started moving South, and wounded the Fla man outside an Ashland, VA resturant.
That was only 5 miles from my house.
Straight down I95.
I figured if I drew fire, someone else could gey a good fix on their position.
It was a little tense around here for awhile.
24 posted on 11/09/2005 6:17:12 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob
"In this section, the term "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means "
... whatever any judge wants it to mean.

I'm all for the congress defining and banning acts it doesn't want members of the military or secret services to do to unlawful combatants. Obviously unlawful combatancy will be a growing problem as the world "globalizes" and good laws on the conduct of such hostilities would be a help.

But it isn't this easy. This is awful.

25 posted on 11/09/2005 6:19:46 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: concretebob
Rarely has there been such an unwise public debate.

--from the full article.

26 posted on 11/09/2005 6:32:34 PM PST by Albion Wilde (America will not run, and we will not forget our responsibilities. George W. Bush)
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To: Albion Wilde
I know, I read it before I posted it.
No disrespect, Mam'm, but was there a point to your post?
27 posted on 11/09/2005 6:37:46 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob

Thanks for the ping!


28 posted on 11/09/2005 8:19:45 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: concretebob

Ping back to you.

My comments would be so profane that JimRob would ban me for life!


29 posted on 11/09/2005 9:02:17 PM PST by 3D-JOY
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To: concretebob

The way the proposal is written it would just about eliminate interrogations – except when prisoners want to betray their people just for the fun of it.


30 posted on 11/10/2005 2:57:17 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: concretebob
The biggest problem I see with this is that it gives no standards as to what is "torture".

I consider torture to be at minimum something that causes massive amounts of pain and some blood loss.

Is cranking up the ac or the heat torture? Not according to me but according to some nitwits yes.

Does this mean that the chairs in the interrogation rooms will no longs have one leg shorter. What about bathroom breaks? One very favorite tactic is to offer detainees plenty to drink and then keep them waiting for permission to use the bathroom until they are ready to pee their pants.

Is this degrading? Sure. Is it torture? Nah! If it is we are going to have to haul in half the school teachers in the country.

31 posted on 11/10/2005 3:18:54 AM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Not all problems can be solved with a sledge hammer. Sometimes nitroglycerin is required. Or a Nuke)
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To: concretebob
"...But what's most troubling is that the amendment likely would be interpreted as a zero-tolerance policy against all effective interrogation techniques,..."

How to Interrogate Terrorists, by Heather McDonald

CB, I assume you already pinged IraqiKurd to this thread?

32 posted on 11/10/2005 4:32:14 AM PST by BufordP (Excluding the WOT, I haven't trusted W since he coined the term "compassionate conservative")
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To: iraqikurd

Ping.


33 posted on 11/10/2005 9:20:49 AM PST by BufordP (Excluding the WOT, I haven't trusted W since he coined the term "compassionate conservative")
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To: concretebob

If we have the Constitutional amendments, we don't need the law.

Once again, McClown is grandstanding, trying to undermine the administration and pandering to the media. This is another unneeded law, like McClown's unconstitutional McCain-Feingold bill.

Nothing that is generated by McClown, the President-elect-in-waiting, is worthwhile or beneficial - except to McClown.


34 posted on 11/10/2005 9:31:30 AM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: iraqikurd

First....If you think that our passing an anti-torture bill is going to make them think any differently about us, forget it. They don't believe it anyway. In fact, by making a big deal about it, we give the impression that this is NEW..that torture has been allowed up to this point. Now that it's out there, we're going to have to pass it...How can a senator vote FOR torture?? But we better get our definition of "torture" out of the hands of the democrats.
If torture is said to be anything that is "degrading" as I read it was, then we're going to have a problem! One person's "degradation" is another's effective, yet not physically abusive, technique. I can see the Dems now. We'd have hearing after hearing trying to decide if something was torture or not.
Let's pass the bill...but let's also NOT call agressive questionning "torture" as I fear the Dems will do...that is, until THEY get into the WH.


37 posted on 11/10/2005 6:24:28 PM PST by t2buckeye
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To: ALlRightAllTheTime; armymarinemom; tgslTakoma; Justanobody; 3D-JOY; Live free or die; Landry Fan; ..
From the "Daggone it I wish I'd wrote that" files

WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?

Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we?

Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001?

Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an! overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet? Well, I don't. I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia.

I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling, slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberti! es are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ---- you guessed it, I could not h! ave said this any better myself!

That's a fact! I don ' t care. Wish I could but I won ' t until a lot of attitudes from the radical Muslim terrorist changes. That ' s not likely, considering their past tyrannical, conquering and inhumane behavior [believe like us, or die] over the last 1400 years.

If you agree with this view point, pass this on to all your e-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior! If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button.

Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country.

And this is when I will care:

I'll care when stupid morons start worrying more about our rights than the rights of murdering thugs hiding behind a false religion, started by the original member of NAMBLA, to justify the abuse of women.

38 posted on 11/10/2005 7:09:12 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob
Veto it President Bush.

And then veto any budget that increases spending more than inflation.

And then veto any budget that doesn't contain provisions for drilling in ANWR.

And then veto each and every bill arriving laced with pork and salt.

It's long past time Dubya. Stand up and fight.

39 posted on 11/10/2005 7:14:14 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: mrsmith
But it isn't this easy. This is awful.

It's called covering an ample ass while taking an undeserved bow. Our Senate, in a word, sucks.

40 posted on 11/10/2005 7:17:08 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: iraqikurd; ALlRightAllTheTime; armymarinemom; tgslTakoma; Justanobody; 3D-JOY; Live free or die; ...
You have lost sight of the argument with the word "torture"

Here is the problem, in boldface type:

(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.--
In this section, the term "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984.

I do not, repeat, DO NOT want ANY non-US citizen, caught trying to kill 1,000's of people, to be protected by OUR Constitution.
WE CANNOT, WE MUST NOT, reduce acts of terror to simple criminal offenses.

The islamo-fascists have been trying to destroy our Constitutional form of government.

They deserve NO, NYET, ZERO, ZIP, NADA protection

41 posted on 11/10/2005 7:31:18 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear
In regards to your tagline:

"There is no problem which cannot be solved through the proper application of high explosives"

Feel free to appropriate that at your leisure.
and see my last post, please.

42 posted on 11/10/2005 7:42:26 PM PST by concretebob (We should give anarchists what they want. Then we can kill them and not worry about jailtime.)
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To: concretebob
I object most to the inclusion of the term "Degrading Treatment or Punishment". I don't see how one would extract intel from a prisoner thru degradation. Wouldn't the subject just get pissed off? Doesn't seem to be a very good inducement to talk, but it would be a very enticing reason to call in the ACLU types to wail about "abuse". I can just see terrorist scumbags complaining about their "feelings being hurt" by wearing handcuffs and leg irons. We'd never be able to even question one of these dirtbags if they saw an interrogator look at them "funny".

Pretty soon there would be no sense in even taking prisoners.
43 posted on 11/10/2005 7:54:38 PM PST by PleaDeal (Bill Whittle for Pres. in '08)
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To: PleaDeal
Of course these techniques work. We have saved thousands of American lives this way.

Pass this amendment, and throusands of Americans will die to ensure the comfort of some of the most vicious terrorists on the face of the earth.

Is it worth your life to please the liberals and McCain?

44 posted on 11/10/2005 8:01:34 PM PST by JCEccles
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To: concretebob

Gosh concretebob why don't you tell us how you really feel?

I told a recent solicitor, after they made repeated calls on the phone, I would not give to their charity..."because I don't give a da--". I guess I am getting better at letting my feelings out too!!


45 posted on 11/10/2005 9:03:23 PM PST by 3D-JOY
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To: concretebob

war crimes ='s simple criminal offense and court protection

ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!

Keep telling it like it is concretebob!


46 posted on 11/10/2005 9:08:42 PM PST by 3D-JOY
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To: concretebob

Bravo!! Well said. Kudo's to the author!!!

To hell with political correctness, and to hell with the terrorists and their sympathizers. To hell with them all!!


47 posted on 11/10/2005 10:17:10 PM PST by GeorgeW23225 ("Grow your own dope. Plant a liberal")
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To: concretebob

Right on!!!


48 posted on 11/10/2005 10:20:21 PM PST by GeorgeW23225 ("Grow your own dope. Plant a liberal")
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To: jwalsh07

I agree. It is the time to put on the gloves and start to fight, Mr. President!!

I'd prefer "bare knuckles", with the first punches thrown at Ted (the swimmer) Kennedy, Little Dick Durbin, and Dingy Harry Reid. Next up, Hillary, Pelosi, Boxer, Kerry...........
I'm sure you catch my drift!!


49 posted on 11/10/2005 10:26:30 PM PST by GeorgeW23225 ("Grow your own dope. Plant a liberal")
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To: concretebob
I do not, repeat, DO NOT want ANY non-US citizen, caught trying to kill 1,000's of people, to be protected by OUR Constitution.

Why not apply local rules and customs? It’s only fair – it would show our sensitivity for local customs, and the “suspects” would be used to the treatment and know what to expect.
50 posted on 11/11/2005 2:08:22 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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