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Prehistoric skull found in dump may be missing common ancestor of apes & humans
The Guardian ^ | Monday November 7, 2005 | Dale Fuchs in Madrid

Posted on 11/07/2005 8:35:20 AM PST by dead

Palaeontologists excavating a dump outside Barcelona have found a skull dating back 14m years that could belong to a common ancestor of apes and humans.

The nearly intact skull, which has a flat face, jaw and teeth, may belong to a previously unknown species of great ape, said Salvador Moya, the chief palaeontologist on the dig. "We could find a cradle of humanity in the Mediterranean," he said.

A routine land survey for a planned expansion of the Can Mata dump in Els Hostalets de Pierola turned up the first surprise in 2002: a primate's tooth.

Since then, scientists from the Miquel Crusafont Institute of Palaeontology in Sabadell have unearthed nearly 12,000 fossils of primates and other animals that lived during the Middle Miocene era - between 14m and 8m years ago - when the area was covered by tropical rainforest and populated by the precursors of today's elephants, antelopes and monkeys.

Last year, the team found a 13m-year-old partial skeleton, also believed to be a common ancestor of apes and humans - a male fruit-eater, nicknamed Pau.

"If there is a place in the world where it is possible to find an entire skeleton of a common ancestor to the great apes and humans, it is Hostalets de Pierola," Mr Moya told El País newspaper. "In few places [will] you uncover so many connected vertebrae in such good condition."

The Can Mata dump sits above clay soil in which animal remains became trapped and well-preserved.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: archaeology; evilution; history; monkeygod; multiregionalism
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To: Palisades
I know several conservatives, including my wife, who would jump off the conservative ride if creationism became the official position of the GOP.

In defence of your wife, it would actually be the GOP jumping off conservatism

161 posted on 11/08/2005 3:09:43 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (Paging Nehemiah Scudder:the Crazy Years are peaking. America is ready for you.)
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To: dead

YYYYYYYAAAAAWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNN ... there they go again ... yyyaaaawwwwnnn.


162 posted on 11/08/2005 4:16:46 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people believe in Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: dead
"The nearly intact skull, which has a flat face, jaw and teeth, may belong to a previously unknown species of great ape....."

So a very ancient species of an ape was found. That is an interesting find. To judge it it based on the article title is a HUGE assumption. Lets sit back and test the find before assuming it a common ancestor between human and ape.

163 posted on 11/08/2005 5:21:28 AM PST by GregoTX (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
I have yet to see a single ETer define conservatism coherently, athiest conservative is as much an oxymoron as queer conservative. Conservatives rely on tradition and practice not useless speculative theories. ET is as speculative useless and braindead as Marx's Das Kapital.

Surely you know that not all evolutionists are atheists. You're not seriously suggesting that 99% of the scientific community is comprised of atheists, are you? That notion is a creationist lie, plain and simple. More of the canards to advance the foolish notion that Evolution and Christianity are incompatible (a notion that the Catholic Church, no stranger to Christianity, has already debunked). Conservatives value the truth, and do not lie to advance their cause.

Second of all, conservatives value reason above blind dogma. We don't define truths by how they make us feel, which is the essense of ID.

Anyone who claims that the ToE is merely speculative hasn't read the information. Conservatives do not value ignorance, willful or otherwise.

For those reasons and more, I see nothing "conservative" about ID. It's the conservative PC, ignoring reality to prevent hurt feelings, nothing more.

164 posted on 11/08/2005 6:30:28 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
ET is as speculative useless and braindead as Marx's Das Kapital.

Nonsense. But you know that already.

165 posted on 11/08/2005 7:00:50 AM PST by Palisades (Cthulhu in 2008! Why settle for the lesser evil?)
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To: highball
Here's a good summary of the "Santorum Amendment." To my knowledge, he hasn't repudiated this nonsense.
166 posted on 11/08/2005 7:07:56 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: MineralMan

Look at those fangs in the upper jaw. Wouldn't want to get bitten by this dude.

Sorry, that doesn't sound very scientific.


167 posted on 11/08/2005 7:09:18 AM PST by wildbill
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

That's a bunch of garbage. There are many people who are conservatives, on a great many issues, but who also are atheists or agnostics. This isn't a theocracy.


168 posted on 11/08/2005 7:11:09 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: WildHorseCrash
Here's a good summary of the "Santorum Amendment." To my knowledge, he hasn't repudiated this nonsense.

Ugh. That's pathetic. I would have expected better from him than PC garbage.

169 posted on 11/08/2005 7:20:42 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: nmh
YYYYYYYAAAAAWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNN ... there they go again ... yyyaaaawwwwnnn.

Perhaps not surprisingly, that's about the most rational defense of ID that has been posted on these boards.

170 posted on 11/08/2005 7:22:14 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: highball
Yup. And Bob Casey, Jr.'s been described as a "conservative Democrat" (anti-abortion, anti-gun control, etc.) So Santorum can't rely on the right-leaning moderates in this one. As of 10/8/05, he's losing independent voters by 23 points. Which, along with only 67% Republican support [as opposed to 80% Dem. support of Casey] is why he's getting beat, bad. If he doesn't turn it around, there's gonna be an ol' fashion ass kickin' and Ricky ain't gonna be the foot.
171 posted on 11/08/2005 7:39:22 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: WildHorseCrash
Yup. And Bob Casey, Jr.'s been described as a "conservative Democrat" (anti-abortion, anti-gun control, etc.) So Santorum can't rely on the right-leaning moderates in this one. As of 10/8/05, he's losing independent voters by 23 points. Which, along with only 67% Republican support [as opposed to 80% Dem. support of Casey] is why he's getting beat, bad. If he doesn't turn it around, there's gonna be an ol' fashion ass kickin' and Ricky ain't gonna be the foot.

I know a lot of fundamentalists and members of the Christian right don't want to hear it, but there is a sizeable percentage of Republicans (such as me and my wife) who vote GOP primarily on economic and defense issues. We are uncomfortable with many of the social issues being pushed by the right wing of the party.

Would we vote Democrat? Probably not. However, we might decide to stay home on election day, and we would be less likely to give money at election time.

172 posted on 11/08/2005 7:54:28 AM PST by Palisades (Cthulhu in 2008! Why settle for the lesser evil?)
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To: Oztrich Boy

Absolutely. But I don't present mine as fact.


173 posted on 11/08/2005 8:05:17 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (outside a good dog, a book is your best friend. inside a dog it's too dark to read)
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To: Palisades
I know a lot of fundamentalists and members of the Christian right don't want to hear it, but there is a sizeable percentage of Republicans (such as me and my wife) who vote GOP primarily on economic and defense issues. We are uncomfortable with many of the social issues being pushed by the right wing of the party.

I understand completely. Personally, I'm on board with the Republicans/conservatives on the defense/military issues. I'd like to think that the Republicans would have been more responsible with the federal purse, but that has been shown to be a pipe dream. [line item veto, anyone??]. As for the social issues, a couple of the issues pursued by social-issue conservatives I agree with, but not to the extent they do. They are also not the highest priority with me.

The increasing self-identification of the party with the religious fundamentalists is rather troubling. And I agree that there's more of us than the religious right believes.

Would we vote Democrat? Probably not. However, we might decide to stay home on election day, and we would be less likely to give money at election time.

I think that one of these days, you're going to see a pro-military, pro-defense, moderate Democrat who will capture a lot of the disaffected voters. Thankfully, the Dems seem to be inclined to run someone like Dean, Hillary, or Kerry, instead.

174 posted on 11/08/2005 8:25:03 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: Palisades
I know a lot of fundamentalists and members of the Christian right don't want to hear it, but there is a sizeable percentage of Republicans (such as me and my wife) who vote GOP primarily on economic and defense issues. We are uncomfortable with many of the social issues being pushed by the right wing of the party.

I think the extreme social conservatives are a very vocal minority. While I respect their right to voice their opinions, letting them set the agenda will only push the party further towards Big Government conservatism.

The only difference between social conservatives and leftists is what they want the government to accomplish - they want to use the power of the state to enforce their own agenda, and all that does is increase the power of the state.

When they become the dominant force in the GOP, the GOP is done.

175 posted on 11/08/2005 8:40:32 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: highball

"Perhaps not surprisingly, that's about the most rational defense of ID that has been posted on these boards."

I know you're blind to common sense but this struck me funny. How many "transitional" skulls must you hear about and later learn they're a hoax?

I was yyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
about yet another wet dream of a "transitional" skull.




176 posted on 11/08/2005 8:43:18 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people believe in Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

Hoaxes? Which ones?

The ones that *scientists* uncovered?

The ones that creationists continue to perpetuate?

Which ones?


177 posted on 11/08/2005 8:46:47 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: WildHorseCrash
I think that one of these days, you're going to see a pro-military, pro-defense, moderate Democrat who will capture a lot of the disaffected voters. Thankfully, the Dems seem to be inclined to run someone like Dean, Hillary, or Kerry, instead.

You hit the nail on the head. To a large extent, the Dems have lost the last two elections because of the loopy nature of their candidates. If they run someone like Joe Lieberman next time around, or another middle of the road Democrat who is tough on defense, the GOP might be in trouble.

178 posted on 11/08/2005 8:50:58 AM PST by Palisades (Cthulhu in 2008! Why settle for the lesser evil?)
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To: dead

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, it is a theory, nothing more, nothing less.


179 posted on 11/08/2005 11:32:52 AM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: Dustbunny
Coulda, shoulda, woulda, it is a theory, nothing more, nothing less.

That's right, and as scientists define the term, a theory is something pretty respectable (see below). Is this how you are defining it, or is it one of the other "definitions" you are using?

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

Hypothesis: a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"

Impression: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity"; "I had a feeling that she was lying"

From an NSF abstract:

However, ideas are not referred to as "theories" in science unless they are supported by bodies of evidence that make their subsequent abandonment very unlikely. When a theory is supported by as much evidence as evolution, it is held with a very high degree of confidence.

Lifted from from RadioAstronomers's post #27 over on another thread.
180 posted on 11/08/2005 12:19:53 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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