Posted on 07/19/2005 8:26:54 PM PDT by nj26
A working draft of Iraq's new constitution would cede a strong role to Islamic law and could sharply curb women's rights, particularly in personal matters like divorce and family inheritance. The document's writers are also debating whether to drop or phase out a measure enshrined in the interim constitution, co-written last year by the Americans, requiring that women make up at least a quarter of the parliament.
The draft of a chapter of the new constitution obtained by The New York Times on Tuesday guarantees equal rights for women as long as those rights do not "violate Shariah," or Koranic law.
The Americans and secular Iraqis banished such explicit references to religious law from the interim constitution adopted early last year.
The draft chapter, circulated discreetly in recent days, has ignited outrage among women's groups, which held a protest on Tuesday morning in downtown Baghdad at the square where a statue of Saddam Hussein was pulled down by American marines in April 2003.
One of the critical passages is in Article 14 of the chapter, a sweeping measure that would require court cases dealing with matters like marriage, divorce and inheritance to be judged according to the law practiced by the family's sect or religion.
Under that measure, Shiite women in Iraq, no matter what their age, generally could not marry without their families' permission. Under some interpretations of Shariah, men could attain a divorce simply by stating their intention three times in their wives' presence.
Article 14 would replace a body of Iraqi law that has for decades been considered one of the most progressive in the Middle East in protecting the rights of women, giving them the freedom to choose a husband and requiring divorce cases to be decided by a judge.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Why are we defending these people again?
...Under some interpretations of Shariah, men could attain a divorce simply by stating their intention three times in their wives' presence.
Article 14 would replace a body of Iraqi law that has for decades been considered one of the most progressive in the Middle East in protecting the rights of women, giving them the freedom to choose a husband and requiring divorce cases to be decided by a judge.
They need to work on that "constitution" just alittle bit longer.
Thats it, put Saddam back in.
The New York Times on Tuesday admits Iraq,just like Afghanistan,will have their own Constitution.
I can't remember anymore. It had something to do with freedom and democracy. I say toss in the towel, pull back to Kwait, send the boys home for a well deserved and long leave, and let those backward muslims kill each other, then step back in and sweep the floor later. If we are just going to hand Iraq over to Iran, there is no point being there any longer.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
In the end...just like us...they will have the government they deserve..
We will have given them the chance...that neither Saddam or their imams or the Saudis trying to undermine democracy would not have..
It will be up to them whether or not they are able to keep
their democracy or not..
If they revert...it will not be because we have failed..but because they have failed.
Which means they have NO rights or equality, and they can be treated as they always have been, according to Koranic law. Here's a few Koranic laws that these 'equal' women will be subject to, and these aren't by any means the worst of them. Remember that Sharia law is based on anything applicable in the Koran or Muhammads life and sayings.
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
You can beat them, rape them, lock them up in their rooms. IF they behave, grovel, beg, you can feed them and let them out, otherwize you can keep on beating them, starving them, raping them until they are dead.
Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”
Muhammad said Allah said it, so it's just as valid as the Koran (all Muhammads words have equal wieght, after all allah and Muhammad were the same person). Women are stupid, therefore they are not equal to a man in any respect.
Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”
Not only are they stupid, but only worth half of that of a man. This has been established in Islamic countries time and time again when it comes to women asking for their fair share in any matter.
Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”
Women in Islam are lowly, lying, untrustworthy creatures, they cannot be trusted, they lie, and are ungratefull for all the abuse and beatings they get.
I'd go on, but this stuff makes me sick. Islam is a sick, twisted, evil cult. How can this government allow this sick crap to be considered a 'religion" is beyond rational thought.
The Bush Administration and others have said all along that ultimately once Iraq is in control and has in interim gov., it is up to them to draft their own constitution. After all it is for them, not for us. Please I don't mean to lecture, but lets face it, their culture, custom, and religon is mostly foreign to westernized civilizaton. We cannot expect them to embrace our way of thinking, it is un-realistic.
What we can expect from them is to use westernized methods in forming a democractically elected government. GWB has stated more then once that was the main goal. Once they are on their own, then outside pressures such as has been applied throughout the ME, can come into play regarding fairness in human rights etc.. One thing I am keen on watching is how the "equal rights under the law" will play out for minority religions. Will Christains be free to practice their beliefs which are obviously totally different in 95%. Who will a Christian divorce be handled? Will either party have the right to file for divorce, and expect an impartial hearing? So many things are going to be interesting to watch. But I don't think it is fair for us to make snide remarks about how their laws are established.
We have to remember it is their choice.
Let us try to remember the key reasons for OIF.
1. remove a brutal dictator.
2. remove Iraq's capability of waging war that has keep the region in turmoil for a long time.
3. find and destroy all WMD Iraq had, so that terrorist could not used them against us or other western nations.
4. Set up a democratic Iraq that would be stable, a good neighbor, act as an example of what Arabs can do in a good way if they are given the chance.
5. Maintain a small foot print in ME for Intel reasons.
6. Establish solid business relationships with Iraq especially for purchasing oil and oil products.
7. By doing the above, eliminate the before possibility that Iraq could try to take over the Saudi Oil fields leading to a world wide catastrophy.
8. If the experiement works, piss the hell out of all the ME countries, as they subjects see Iraq prosper in a somewhat multiethnic democratic culture, adding the pressure points for other ME countries to move forward with democractic reform etc..
9. No once things settled down no longer have to maintain the north/south fly zones. This was costing us billions of dollars a year. In those years it was active, it probably costs us as much as the bill so far for OIF operations.
Just some points we can remember where goals the POTUS and DoS had in mind.
So perhaps we should not worry about how much Islam is ultimately going to rule their new government. If it is a mild form due to the checks and balances due to the main parties being of so many sects and cultures, they just may
end up finding a reasonable solution. Sort of like an American melting pot to some extent. And gee whiz they have hardly got started as of yet. I still am a bit amazed they are so close to a final constitutional draft. I give them credit for this. It took us a lot longer in the US if we remember. A lot longer. One thing seems for sure, the Butcher of Baghdad is going to be tried and convicted and then either hung or shot. Once him and his croonies are poping up daiseys, things further are going to settle down.
The Z-man is loosing ground. Who wants to blow themselves up in a car? A very small percent. They are getting more satellite news, channels from the outside world thanks to the BBC, and they are seeing how many Immans are starting to condemn terrorist attacks in all forms. So how much sway is a fanatic like Zarqawi going to have as time goes by?
The borders tighten, Syria may be forced to close down those terrorist camps soon or get a taste of humiliation, Bashir knows his ass is grassed if we have to go in and start taking out the camps and all known safehouse, and Ba'athist
HQs etc..
Perhaps I diverged, sorry, but I see the whole picture integrated often in a way that tells me at least, one must look at the over all picture and not squable to much over a given item. That is MHO.
I can't believe I'm saying this but... Pull out. Now.
For once, we conservatives were too brash and optomistic. We thought we could change the Middle-East, but it seems now that we can't.
Pull out, and let's go save the Korean pennisula. These wankers aren't worth our time.
Why? Must they establish a constitution the same as ours? Their views, lifestyles, etc. while abhorrent to us in the West works for them. It is not for any other nation to determine how they choose to govern themselves. It's not as if it will last long anyway. Give them a generation, if that, and Iraq will be an Islamic theocracy
Much of that is true, but much of that isn't going to happen.
As far as fullfilling the main objectives, yes, we are near completion. Whatever happens, happens.
No doubt it will be a civil war before long, but we will remain close in case Iran tries to take over outright I'm sure.
If the NYT had been around when our Constitution was written, I wonder what they would've said about some of those drafts? Wasn't there a squabble over addressing slavery at the time? Did those thirteen colonies, with their variety of state-approved religions just all of a sudden get along? I seem to recall that agreeing on interstate trade, not to mention a common currency, was a bit dicey. How long did it take from the end of the Revolution to get to that final document again? The 27th Amendment was first proposed in 1789 and ratified by all states by 1992. Hmmmm, 74003 days--not a good sign for those colonial ruffians, is it?
I think I'm going to wait and see what the end result is before I indulge in the elitist attitude I so despise in liberals.
"No doubt it will be a civil war before long, but we will remain close in case Iran tries to take over outright I'm sure."
Guess time will tell. But if I may, a earlier reponse you made #6, where you feel we should just pull out. Pull out,
to where? Kuwait does not have adequate facilities to hold
all our forces. We have a number of camps n/nw/he of Al Salama air force base, where these camps are set up to act as transitions points for incoming/outgoing at a division level.
But not to hold all 130K plus all our armament, equipment, etc..
What kind of signal would that be to the ME and world? We pull out just as their constitution and upcoming full federal elections are to take place. We had planned on staying in Iraq for a few years under the best conditions.
We probably are 3/4 to a year behind do to turn in events.
But in another half year or so, the Iraqi Army may be at the point of taking over must of the provinces. And obviously their ever increasing in size and efficiency security forces are in play as I write. We are close to hand over a province or two to them, where we will totally pull out of soon.
To pull out now would be a total disaster and tell our military and their families their loved ones died in vain.
And the Iraqi governement and those behind the scences in Iraq, e.g. intelectuals etc., surely want us to stay around for another year or so. Don't you understand most of Iraq is quiet as a church mouse? We have probably removed and destroyed 3/4 or more of their total ordnance at this point.
The bull shit we hear about them having an infinite supply of ordnance to continue the struggle is just bravado.
It is not truthfull. But that is beside the point. It appears some of us are simply watching the L/MSM constant show of very very very very few attacks nation wide. Everytime they try to do something they are now getting caught. Don't you delve into the sites often referenced here about all the good stuff that is being accomplished, both militarily as well as humanitarian in nature, and the infrastructor rebuilding process? Just because some desperate L/MSM reporters continue to harp that civil war is going to break out any day does not mean it represents the truth. Let me ask you. Where is the civil war going to break out?
Can you provide me with a definitive answer? Hint. One or two cities is not indicative that the country is going to burst out in a civil war. Think about it. But I am not bashing you in any way believe me. I just want to offer things we should keep in mind when evaluating things sqawked by the L/MSM. I wonder. If those in both sides of the congress have become quiet, no more cries of it is a mess, a quagmire, even my some commie drunk like Teddy. How bad is it really going over there. Our military say we are on target. Country wide, there is little resistance. It is only in the sunni and triangle of death areas which is a small part of the country, that the problems continue. And obviously on ocassions Orbil, Kirkuk, Musul, get some goon that gets through a barreir and blows himself up.
Is this what we would expect from a violent out of control
insurgency? And do let us remember we where basically promised to expect more violence as the constitution was to be drafted then approved, followed up by that federal election. Nothing new hear, right? When you think of it.
Did you expect the remaining foreign terrorist to just all leave? The main border areas are becoming more secure, as all those now seasoned Iraqi Army and security forces are taking over permenent roles. They are now in the stage where we are equiping their airforce. In the not to distant future they shall be doing more air support for themselves. They are getting new armored transportation vehicles, and the logistical training of how to operate their new army. The lists go on and on, as how quickly they are progressing.
Should we just walk out on them at this point?
Earlier this year, while still in office, the former Attorney General of Ontario moved to establish an Islamic Institute to arbitrate family law disputes on the basis of Shariah.
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