Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005
NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.
"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."
The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."
The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.
"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."
It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.
"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.
He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."
Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."
Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.
"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.
James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.
"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."
Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.
"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.
Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "
He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.
Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.
BriarBey,
You need help, and prayers. Someone has poisoned your mind and it is destroying your soul.
I'll be praying for you.
****
Oh Lord.....conservonator...I haven't laughed that hard in days!!! I'm sorry....it just struck me as hilarious. I know what you are thinking, and I also know how poisoned your belief system is....you can't help but say that to me, and say it with DEEP concern. I said this to someone else a while back....back us up in time and let me try to convince you the world is not flat ,it really really is round. You believe from the standpoint that you can see....read your bible conserv. and read it thru your own eyes, not the eyes of another flesh and blood man, pray for guidence and let your HEAVENLY FATHER start teaching you thru the Holy Spirit. HE WILL!! I PROMISE YOU!!
Just curious - when do you think the church was begun?
*******
I'm still trying to figure out who was running the show for the 313 years it took after Christ death for this so called save the universe system to get things in order. RCC didn't exist till 313 A.D. under Constantine. I'm sure there will be some relic they can conjure up for that time in history.
I'd say that if these Baptists would remember Reagan's rule that "a person who votes for me 80% of the time is not my enemy," they'd be far better off.
*****
So you'll be ok with me adding only 20% poison to your food?
After all 80% of it will be edible, what the other 20% is shouldn't really worry you if this is how you feel.
God doesn't WANT 80%...you can't be 80% His...its all or nothing. Hot or Cold.....80%..lukewarm, He will spew you from his mouth. (His words, not mine.)
The fact that God's Spirit lives in Christians does not in any way show or prove that we all have been equal authority in the Church. The Church is a body, as Paul points out elsewhere, and not everyone is the head.
You seem to think that when Paul says that "all things are yours", Paul means that each Corinthian believer (and each Christian today) has all the authority of the Apostles. Paul means no such thing. You emphasize "ALL THINGS". But here's how absurd your literalism is. If "all things are ours" is not contextually restricted, then "being God" is also ours. If "all things are ours", then being the Creator of the heavens and the earth is ours. But not only is that false, it is blasphemy. So, by "all things", Paul clearly does not literally mean "all things". The "all" here has to be understood in context, which you clearly do not understand. This is a perfect example of what is wrong with "sola scriptura". You don't know how to interpret the Scripture, and so you read it any way you like. In other words, you make yourself into God.
BriarBey, if you have "all things", then you must have Apostolic authority. If so, why do you claim to follow the Apostles in the Bible? Since you have Apostolic authority (since you have "all things"), why bother consulting other Apostles? In fact, since you have "all things", then you must have "authority superior to that of the Apostles". (If you didn't have authority superior to the Apostles, then you would not have all things.) In that case, why do you bother with the Bible at all? Why don't you write your own Bible, since you have authority superior to that of the Apostles?
-A8
No, many miracles happened not found in Scripture, I just question why a big event such as the Assumption was never emphasized by John or any other Apostles. My whole point in this discussion. It took over 1900 years to be dogma, why so long?
Is a person damned to hell because one questions the Assumption?
You will be in my prayers
A very good case for denying the Calvinist take theology: namely, GOD is the One doing everything, Man could not oppose an All Powerful Being if he tried.
These verse show the Armian veiwpoint that man CAN reject, turn away or be mislead into thinking he is doing it GOD's way, when in reality, he is doing it HIS way.
NIV Matthew 7:21-23
21. "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23. Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
NIV Matthew 24:12-13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
NIV Mark 13:13
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
NIV John 15:1-6
1. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5. "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
NIV Romans 11:21-22
21. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
NIV 1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
NIV Colossians 1:23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
NIV 1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
NIV Hebrews 2:1-4
1. We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
2. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
3. how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
4. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
NIV Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
NIV Hebrews 3:12-19
12. See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
14. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
15. As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
16. Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
17. And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert?
18. And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed ?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
NIV Hebrews 4:1
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
NIV Hebrews 4:11
Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
NIV Hebrews 6:4-13
4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6. if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation.
10. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.
11. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
12. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
NIV Hebrews 10:26-39
26. If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27. but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32. Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering.
33. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.
34. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.
35. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37. For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
39. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
NIV 2 Peter 2:20-22
20. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
NIV 1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
-A8
So, that's who was "running the show" during the first 300 years.
-A8
In other words, you make yourself into God.
*****
No, I listen to God, and follow Christ, not man....the whole idea just kind of takes it out of man's hand and puts the power back where it belongs doesn't it?
Jesus plainly said..."My kingdom is not of this world." His people are in this world but not of this world.
I don't want your rich, elaborate, gold encrusted powerless system, built by the hands of men. Yuck....it stinks to the high heavens, after smelling the freedom of TRUTH.
Besides......who exactly am I hurting. I have no political power (your pope is the only religious ambassador to the U.N.) I'm not taking anyones money and my only agenda has been to warn. Let people work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. The seed gets planted....I can't do anything else, I can't water it, I can't make it grow.
I'm doing what I have been led to do. In my own mind have I got better things to do? No doubt. But obviously not what the Lord wants. He brings the ones across my path that he wants crossing my path, I don't bang doors or search out......there are certain ones that seem to find me.
Everyday....in every aspect of my life. Always have.
To: BriarBey
The Roman Catholic Church existed from the time of Christ, even though it was not initially called the "Roman Catholic Church". Of course, Peter was initially in Jerusalem. But he went to Rome at some point in the 40s, and was the overseer (i.e. bishop) of the church at Rome until his death in 67. Before his death he appointed a successor, Linus (67-76), who was followed by Anacletus (76-88), who was followed by Clement (88-96). Clement himself had been ordained (i.e. made a priest) by Peter. The bishops appointed by the Apostles, and then the second generation bishops, and so on, were the authorities in the Church. The primacy of the Roman bishop derives from the primacy of Peter, who was appointed the chief of the Apostles. No Church father ever denied the primacy of Peter or the Roman bishop. And we see Clement intervening in the Corinthian church, even when St. John was still alive. And in the second century, we see Irenaeus (who was not in Rome) write about the necessity of being in agreement with the Roman church.
So, that's who was "running the show" during the first 300 years.
*****
So at what point in history were you feeding true Christians to the lions, burning and crucifying them?
Is a person damned to hell because one questions the Assumption?
*****
NO!!! (frantically waving arms jumping up and down!!!)
Question by all means PLEASE Question. The Bereans were commended for their not accepting every doctrine as truth but QUESTIONING!!!
Studying Scripture and the writings of the early Church fathers is what lead me back to the Church after my apostasy.
*****
AAAWWWW..no conserv....tears.....you were so close...so close. You just didn't understand. (heart hurting)
How could I unless someone guided me?
Apparently because it was largely unknown.
Is a person damned to hell because one questions the Assumption?
The ground for believing a matter of faith is the authority of the source of the matter. If the Church states that something is infallibly true, to doubt it is to doubt the authority of the Church, and thus to doubt the ground for all the doctrines of the faith. The doctrines of the Church are not known in the way in which scientific truths are known, through evidence, experimentation, induction, abduction, verification, etc. They are known by believing in the authority (and hence trustworthiness) of their source.
-A8
You seem to think that listening to God and listening to man are mutually exclusive, as if one cannot do both at the same time, in the very same act. Oddly, however, you keep referring to the Scriptures, which were written by men. So, you keep saying that you don't listen to men, and yet you keep referring to the writings of men. Which is it? Listen to Christ, or toss out your Bible?
Perhaps you do in fact, at some deep level, realize that listening to men is not necessarily at odds with simultaneously, and in the very same act, listening to God. Either that, or you don't mind living in contradictions.
If you do realize that you can listen to God and men at the same time in the same act, then your whole objection to following Christ's living authorities on Earth today goes out the window. You will have to claim that although it was permissible to listen to the Apostles, as soon as the Apostles died, it became wrong to listen to the bishops appointed by the Apostles. Is that your position?
-A8
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