Former Iraqi brass pledges to guard Fallujah

North County Times ^ | 4/30/04 | Darrin Mortenson

[Keith]

You are right on the money...which is why this is a pretty good idea...

we are going to find out real fast whether these guys can stand on their own...

If I were them, and knew Spectre was right over head, I would want "him" on my side...

[vbmoneyspender]

I think the Republican Guard could fairly be equated to military wing of the SS. They got the best equipment and were deemed the most loyal to the regime. They were also the people who were given the job by Hussein of putting down the Shiite rebellion after the first Gulf War. It is undeniable that the Republican Guard committed atrocities in putting down that rebellion. They killed thousands if not several hundred thousand people in putting down that rebellion.

[Polybius]

His point is that the Republican Guard is roughly equivalent to the SS. The Republican Guard were the shock troops of the Baathist regime.

The Republican Guards were the only Iraqi military units worthy of the name. The rest were conscript cannon fodder.

For the ideological equivalent of the SS, you would have to go to the Fedayeen Saddam (Saddam's "Men of Sacrifice").

[vbmoneyspender]

The Republican Guard would be roughly equivalent to the Waffen SS. The Fedayeen would be equivalent to the Allegmeine SS.

[Polybius]

Am I reading the New York Times? "Well since Bush was only in the Guard, that is like not serving at all, therefore he didn't serve at all, therefore he burned his draft card and went to Canada, therefore he is a communist. See, Bush is a communist." Excellent deductive reasoning.

You have posted nothing but an incoherent and drooling non sequitur.

Tell us, exactly, how this particular Iraqi general, chosen for this particular mission by the U.S. Marine commander in the combat theater is equivalent to the "SS".

Tell us.

[Rokke]

So tell me...where to you get all your insight into the current situation in Iraq. You obviously think you have the answers. Marines on the ground in Fallujah disagree with you. Who is right? I know who I'm putting my money on.

[Rokke]

"Everyday is a victory for the enemy."

That just about sums up your whole defeatist attitude. In your world, I have no doubt that statement is true.

[mississippi red-neck]

.It has been stated many times on FR that Patton used former nazi military officers in the occupation of Germany.

This is not true. Patton left a few of the civil employees in certain key civilian posts such as food distribution and transportation who had been members of the Nazi party. Their was no German military left. They where either dead, in custody, on the run, in prison camps, or disbanded and unarmed. The last fighting done in Berlin was by ten and twelve year Hitler youth boys.

The only armed authority where the U. S. Military and it's Allies and the Russian military in their sector. See "General Patton A Soldiers Life", by Stanley P. Hirshson pg.664-669.

[Polybius]

The Republican Guard would be roughly equivalent to the Waffen SS. The Fedayeen would be equivalent to the Allegmeine SS.

As I understand it, the Allgemeine-SS (General SS) served a politicial and administrative role, the SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS Deaths Head Organization) was in control of the prison system and the Waffen-SS (Armed SS) were the front-line combat units.

The Fedayeen Saddam were not created to serve a political or administrative role. They were created as an ideologically fanatic armed paramilitary force.

During the drive to Baghdad, it was Fedayeen Saddam and not the Republican Guard who put up stiff armed resistance to the advance of coalition forces.

As a frontline military force, the Iraqi Republican Guard did not measure up to non-SS Wehrmacht units.

The equivalencies I would use are the following:

The Fedayeen Saddam were equivalent to the Waffen SS, the Republican Guards were equivalent to Wehrmacht units without much fight in them and the regular Iraqi Army units were equivalent to the Volkssturm.

[Toespi]

Let's wait and see... I personally think it is time to find out what the Iraqi people are made of and if THEY are willing to die for FREEDOM!!!

[Keith]

Well, we could argue whether IRG = SS... ...but our past suggests we have done this before. I own this book about Operation Paperclip.

[vbmoneyspender]

I guess we have a disagreement. My understanding of the Fedayeen is that they were created as an internal force meant to terrorize the citizenry into submission. In this regard, they would be roughly equivalent to the internal police forces which I believe the Allgemeine section of the SS was in charge of. The Republican Guard would not be the equivalent of the Wehrmacht because they were created with the idea of protecting Hussein, which was the idea behind the Waffen-SS, which originally started out as Hitler's personal bodyguard. Iraq's Army would be equivalent to Wehrmacht because the Republican Guard, like the Waffen-SS, was created with the idea of creating a counterweight to the Army. I am not sure what would be equivalent to the deaths head section of the SS because they were incorporated into the Waffen-SS in 1940/41. For my sources on this, you can check out The History of the SS by G.S. Graber.

In any event I am sure we can go back and forth about what was and was not similar regarding Adolf Hitler's use of police and military forces and Hussein's use of police and military forces. The key point I was trying to make is that the Republican Guard is composed of people who directly participated in atrocities that have occurred over the past several decades. As a result, when discussing the bona fides of high-ranking officers in the Republican Guard, I believe it would be prudent to take a guilty until proven innocent approach with respect to these fellows.

[vbmoneyspender]

I've been looking a little further into the organization of the SS and I think the Security Department section of the SS headed by Heydrich until his death might be a more equivalent organization to that of the Fedayeen. The SD would have included the Security Police, the Gestapo and the Einsatsgruppen that were used to terrorize people in areas such as Poland and the Ukraine.

[Polybius]

I guess we have a disagreement. My understanding of the Fedayeen is that they were created as an internal force meant to terrorize the citizenry into submission. In this regard, they would be roughly equivalent to the internal police forces which I believe the Allgemeine section of the SS was in charge of. The Republican Guard would not be the equivalent of the Wehrmacht because they were created with the idea of protecting Hussein, which was the idea behind the Waffen-SS, which originally started out as Hitler's personal bodyguard. Iraq's Army would be equivalent to Wehrmacht because the Republican Guard, like the Waffen-SS, was created with the idea of creating a counterweight to the Army. I am not sure what would be equivalent to the deaths head section of the SS because they were incorporated into the Waffen-SS in 1940/41. For my sources on this, you can check out The History of the SS by G.S. Graber.

In any event I am sure we can go back and forth about what was and was not similar regarding Adolf Hitler's use of police and military forces and Hussein's use of police and military forces. The key point I was trying to make is that the Republican Guard is composed of people who directly participated in atrocities that have occurred over the past several decades. As a result, when discussing the bona fides of high-ranking officers in the Republican Guard, I believe it would be prudent to take a guilty until proven innocent approach with respect to these fellows.

You know, I really can't fault your logic.

I guess that the problem comes in regards to what the sections of the Iraqi armed forces were meant to do when they were created and what they actually did when the balloon went up. They are two different things. :-)

As Stalin found out after his purge of military officers, ideological fanaticism does not translate into military competence.

It is my belief that the Republican Guard was militarily competent but ideologically soft. (Militarily competent enough to know that engaging the U.S. was suicidal and ideologically soft enough to know that Saddam was not worth dying for.)

It is my belief that the Fedayeen Saddam were ideologically fanatic but militarily incompetent. (Ideological enough to know that they were willing to die for Saddam but militarily incompetent enough to think that charging an Abrams with an RPG would actually accomplish something.)

From what I have read, it seems that this particular Iraqi General was in the "Militarily Competent - Ideologically Soft" category.

I am sure that, over the past year, this particular Iraqi General has been gone over with a fine toothed comb by U.S. authorities.

After World War II, many "Militarily Competent - Ideologically Soft" Germans made fine additions to West Germany's armed forces and to NATO.

For example:

Dietrich Hrabak, a 125-victory Ace with more than 1000 combat missions, was a key architect in rebuilding the modern German Air Force. ................In July 1955, Hrabak was one of the first three former-Luftwaffe officers to train in the Lockheed T-33. After this training in the United States, he returned to Germany and became the first German commander of the new German Air Force's Pilot School "B" at Furstenfeldbruck AB, a few miles west of Munich. Hrabak, one of the Luftwaffe’s most famous Aces and a highly respected fighting wing commander, put his stamp on a whole generation of pilots and influenced the doctrine and tactics of the reborn German Air Force.

Erwin Rommel, another "Militarily Competent - Ideologically Soft" World War II German would also have made a fine NATO commander if he had survived the war.

Disclaimer: I acknowledge that comparing World War II German military competence and Iraqi military competence is analogous to comparing apples and lemons. However, when we only have lemons to work with, we have to make lemonade and not apple pie.

[vbmoneyspender]

It's funny you brought up the issue regarding the incorporation of former Third Reich officers into the Bundeswehr, etc. I have been looking for information on that and have not been too successful. Thanks for the link.

[river rat]

"When Jefferson came to office it was over 1/5th of the entire federal budget."

And -- Jefferson, through various means which included bombardments of Tripoli (1803-04) and subsequent actions against the "Barbary Pirates" ended our payment of "tribute" by 1815..
Europeans continued to pay until about 1830....

Even then, the Muslims along the coast -- considered kidnapping and ransoms as "business"...

I believe the time has arrived where the Islmaists need to be "disciplined" to behave themselves.....

Semper Fi

[river rat]

"Your analogy is not even relevant. Last time I looked at a map, Iraq was not on the open seas."

I would have attempted to explain; however, your quoted comment convinced me you'd be too stupid to grasp the point...

Semper Fi

[NeonKnight]

I would have attempted to explain; however, your quoted comment convinced me you'd be too stupid to grasp the point...

Just like trying to debate a lefty. Using insultants rather than sound argument.