An Open letter to President Bush (End run vs. Outsourcing)

You don't know me, nor do I expect you to. But I'm one of those voices out here in the ether that actually did vote for you. I'm not one of those seminar caller types nor a Democrat pretending at being a republican to subvert the party faithful in dishonest fashion because their ideas aren't popular enough to win them anything. No, I'm a life-long republican who cherishes the memory of Ronald Reagan and who thought highly of you right up to the time you sunk a knife in my back economically.

Sir I understand it's a hard job being president. I also understand that in IT my job causes me to have to think on my feet and respond to an everchanging environment just to keep it. And while I was busting my behind for a company I happened to love doing a job I happened to love, you decided it's a good thing to do an endrun around equal protection and hand my job to a Mexican worker at 1/3 of the rate I'm being paid. Sir, Retail employees get paid more than that Full time and they're earning below the poverty level. The Job I hold for the moment requires a lot of hard work and problem solving skills, it requires good customer care skills, and it requires a long knowledge of Computers and software I didn't get from a degree but from practical experience.

I worked long and hard for years looking for the break that would get me in the door with my current employer. And I currently have a carreer with them. Or had, rather. I've worked for EDS for nearly 4 years. I will lose my job just short of that anniversary or just after it depending on how the breakdown happens.

I have a handicap that keeps me from driving a car. Not an official handicap, because it's so rare a problem that 1/2 of 1% of Americans have the condition so it doesn't rate being called what it is. I'm a blip on the screen. But, it means I have to live close to my employer and sometimes rely on others to help me get things done. I've lost everything and put my life back together 3 times in 15 years sir. And having just accomplished it again after 4 years with my employer, your policy has killed any protection I might have otherwise enjoyed from having my job destroyed by foriegn competition. And it puts me right back on the brink again. Sir, if I don't stand a chance of winning, it isn't competition - it's fish in a barrel. Where is my equal protection under the law?

The "competition" didn't get hired because of race or creed; but, because of national origin. They got hired because their cost of living is low enough that they can be paid sub-poverty wages to do my job. They are taking my job because they aren't constrained by the laws we have in this country to protect us and preserve our liberties. Lower cost of living, and no laws to constrain them. See, we used to have what was called ANTI-DUMPING laws on the books before Nafta to prevent the subversion of our economy by those who would attempt to compete on an unfair basis and put American firms out of business. We aren't a global economy, the globe is not the United States of America. They don't respect our rights, our Constitution, our laws or ourselves. The average citizen of the world might; but, we aren't dealing with them, we're dealing with the leaders who have their boots on the neck of the citizen of the world.

It seems today that I have to be a Mexican to get a fair shake in America. There are some 8 million of them here illegally as a tax on our system and working here taking jobs that Americans can do; but, which apparently, nobody wants to offer a fair wage for as long as they can get slave labor off the books. That isn't enough though. We need to employ More workers from Mexico, India, China.. As long as we're doing it, sire, why not be obvious and lets put Sally Struthers on the TV to advertise IT Jobs for the people under repressive regimes in africa who can live on 52 cents a day, "the price of a cup of coffee." I don't care what color their skin is, No citizen of the United states could live on that and shouldn't be asked to compete with it. It's too blatently obvious that it's unfair. And that seems to be why it's "good for us all".

Your policy sir. It's you on the tube telling me it's good for me to lose my job to a Mexican worker outside of our system and in a manner with which I cannot compete. There isn't a job comparable to it here that I can take to make up the difference cause those are being outsourced too. Outsourced. How about endran. Because sir, that is what is happening - it's an end run around our system - around our rights, our laws, our constitutional provisions and protections. Your policy has relieved me of my job without due process. It tied my hands before I had a chance to respond. And so many businesses are being forced to do the same thing, that I don't stand a chance any more than those earning 3 times what I do in the same field who have lost their jobs already and have had to take 11k a year Retail jobs just to eat while their houses go up for sale.

I don't have a degree. I don't get retraining. I just get to lose my job at the whim of your policies and will likely lose more than that in the end. You see, I bought a new home too - a year ago. This job made it possible for me to do that. And as with my Job, I had to get a huge break to be able to pull it off. I've been behind you and a cheerleader of yours since I first heard you speak. I understand that the tanking economy isn't your fault. I understand it isn't your fault we were attacked. I understand and agree with pretty much everything you've done to date, sir. This however is in my mind beyond sickening. It is a betrayal of myself, my coworkers and every other hard working IT worker, Auto worker, etc that has lost their job due to this. It is a betrayal by their government and their employer. And it's a distrust you've earned by subverting them and me. For me, it's not just my Government, it's my own party.

Now I've heard all the arguments for outsourcing and all the copout phrases about what we do about companies that have outsourced to the US. Tell me, sir, how many of them outsourced to do an endrun around their system of government, their constitution, their laws and their workers. How many of them outsourced to us to produce goods for their home market. That isn't an argument that flies with me in the face of doing an endrun around us. They've built plants in our land and are working within our market, within it's rules, within our laws, within the constraints of our constitution and are paying a competative wage. Our companies are doing the opposite. And any way you cut it, it is economic and constitutional tyranny. I'm not a single issue voter sir, until that single issue is my life and livelihood.. until members of my own party call me a robber and a thief for expecting to keep my job when I've worked my behind off to do so.

I did it right. I've busted my backside under an ever increasing workload, kept my promise to my employer and my client. Never missed a metric, never dropped the ball for either of them and have always exceeded expectation as a member of one of the best teams on this planet in my humble opinion. My job is gone not because we didn't produce and not because either couldn't afford it; but, because Mexicans work cheaper and don't have our protections, laws, rights or constitution. I have a strong work ethic and a loyalty to my company that even now makes me shudder to say a bad word about them. I have no illusions; but, I was raised that if you do your best it pays off. I know now that if you do your best, you get kicked in the teeth just as hard, and if you get ahead a little bit, the government will be there to kick you back down. I appreciate how hard your job is. Mine is pretty dang hard too. But how about you and everyone in government work for $600 a month from now on like the Mexican workers replacing us. How about you all work for the income you're forcing me into. If it's good for us, it should be good for you too. You, and all the ivory tower types in our party that hiss at me for being upset over losing my job and wanting to defend myself. How would that be, sir? I'd just as soon see little Tommy Daschle and Ted Kennedy go fly a kite as hear them spout one more offensive evil lie about you. But I'd just as soon, too, see you join them holding the string if you're gonna ruin me and tell me it's good for me. How about if we just outsource your jobs too - oh, wait, that would be unconstitutional too, wouldn't it.

Anytime good business is bad for a society that society has issues that need resolving.

Well if you're so close you can't see the forest for the trees, then this type of statement is to be expected. Because it's all a matter of what we define as "good business". Ya'll think you should be able to do anything you want as long as it turns a profit. I've demonstrated that has not been the case and for good reason. I've provided Three top examples of abuses that business thought was good business. Because they were evidently too close and too single minded, we the people had to jerk a knot in their collective tail. And in one instance it was the basis for a civil war. Business has demonstrated time and again the ability to put blinders on so they can only see dollar signs while they create and perpetuate attrocities against the citizenry. We've been here before too.

Through your own logic and that of others here, you legitimize hitmen and murder for hire in general. It turns a profit and after all, no business should be limited by anyone in their pursuit of profit - that's just evil. So If I can find someone that wants you dead, I'd be justified in offing you as long as I can make a profit.. that's your standard.. Anybody want this guy offed? (/sarcasm)

Good business is things like sending labor to somewhere cheaper, under cutting competition who have too much fat, and expanding market share.

Sorry I don't legitimize hitmen and murder, saying I do is LYING and not appreciated. I legitimize doing business legally and thuroughly. I'm just not stupid enough to think that a business has some ethical obligation to allow competition to thrive or even exist. My standard is that if stupid taxation and regulation drives up labor costs in America so much that manufacturing can no longer be done profitably in America that's AMERICA'S fault, not the businesses moving manufacturing to somewhere cheaper. There's no murder in that, and no equivalent to murder. Stop the lies Havoc, they make you look desperate and stupid.

No, ya'll keep saying that anything done to restrict business from turning a profit is wrong. Now you can't have it both ways. Either there is a place and time to do it, or there is not. And so far not one of you has dained to admit that there is such thing as appropriate restriction and that business has historically been unable to clearly judge when that is for itself on numerous occasions. Either regulation is right and necessary or it is not. You can't have it both ways.

My standard is that if stupid taxation and regulation drives up labor costs in America so much that manufacturing can no longer be done profitably in America that's AMERICA'S fault,

Well, so far, I haven't seen any business leave because they couldn't make a profit. They have left to make bigger profits because they can offer sub poverty wages in other countries, no benefits and they don't have to worry about such trivial things as worker rights. You know - no osha around to see that the operation is first and foremost, safe.. things like that. And the claim that they can't make a profit here belies the facts on the ground. Again, companies here from other countries competing in our society paying competative wages are having no problem earning a profit. They are under the same restrictions. They just ain't tryin to get a million out of every customer who walks in the door. And this is the same circular bs you guys keep uttering with not a leg to stand on.

Stop the lies Havoc, they make you look desperate and stupid.

Uh, you free traitor types are the ones saying ANY restriction on a business's abiltity to make a profit is wrong, robbery, evil, etc. I mean, for cryin out loud, it's practically ya'lls mantra apart from calling us robbers and thieves for expecting to keep our jobs, saying you can't make a profit here in face of facts to the contrary and trying to denigrate us as evil for trying to put a stop to the damage being done in the name of profit. Again, you can't have it both ways. If it is evil to restrict business activity then it's evil to stop hitmen. If it's not evil to restrict business, then it's ok to outlaw murder and punish hitmen. But then you've surrendered one of your hollow voodoo sticks for sake of argument. Which is it. Is murder ok, or is restricting business ok in order to stave off abuses by businessmen with no scruples.

Yes it is an attack on business, welcome to free market capitalism, it isn't for the weak of heart. Every business is either a lion or a gazelle and they don't usually find out which until blood is shed. It's a kill or be killed world in business, there's only so much money to go around and a business' job is to get as much of it as they can.

Ah, good. A man after my own heart. It's all about bucks, kid. The rest is...conversation. Just kill everybody else and devil take the hindmost. Ethics, morality, doing the right thing, all of those are for sissies, sentimental Judeo-Christian ethics that are outmoded in the globalist capitalist world. To hell with anything and anyone who gets in the way of the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar. Right on!

No I'm arguing that the duty of a corporation is profit. And anybody that knows anything about business knows that when one company makes profit there's a good chance others are going out of business.

Right. Profit above all. No duty to country, society, or individuals. If those get in the way of making a profit, to hell with them. Profit is God to the decadent, amoral capitalist.

So when I run you out of business and have a monopoly on everything, don't dare stand in my way of abusing you and everyone else. And don't let outmoded concepts like government of the people by the people and for the people even think about standing up to my monopoly. If I want to pay my workers in script that is only redeemable at the company store where I can charge whatever price I want for basic necessities, well, tough, its none of your business. You don't like it, screw you. You can always get another job or start your own business with no money. Oops. Sorry. Can't do that. I have a monopoly, remember. And pure, unadulterated, divine, unquestionable, worshipped-at-all-costs free market capitalism tells us that this is the only way to go. No interference, nothing to impede the march toward that Utopian ideal (for me, of course, and no one else).

Anytime good business is bad for a society that society has issues that need resolving. -478

When you're competing in the US market your only DUTY is to do so profitably -481

you said it, not me. And these arguments are right in line with the rest of the talking points in your repertoire. Same stuff all the others here have been spouting. The only duty is to make profit. No duty to the law, no duty to the constitution, no duty to the people - the only duty is to the dollar. Your words. Words mean things. And when we carry the words to their logical end, this is where we end up. You'r compadres have already stated the other side plainly - regulation is all bad. I mentioned abolition on another thread and the response was as unbelievable as it was haughty and ignorant. You guys say things because they sound good; but, your constructs are equations - you don't like when we solve the equation with real world examples and real world consequences. There's nothing a sophist hates worst than having his words turned back on him to show him a fraud. Sorry, but you're arguments lead where they lead.

Plenty have moved manufacturing out of America because hey couldn't make a profit. You might be denying that's why they did it, but you'd be wrong. And even if they just make the move to increase profits, so what. There's nothing wrong with trying to increase the margin, again that is the point of business.

Ah yes "free traitor", can't go on facts so you run to the shelter of canned insults. Classic. Way to show you know you're full of it but don't have the fortitude to admit it.

And on top of that you throw in more LIES. I didn't say any restriction is wrong. STOPY LYING!

here's what's not OK:
Lying
erecting strawmen
resorting to pathetic insults
not having the reading comprehension of a six year old

Fix those and we can discuss this, until such time good luck dealing with your self induced ulcers.

Whadza matta for you, eh? I'm agreeing with you. Don't you understand that capitalist jive? Kill, in the sense of ruin, destroy, run out of business, never see the light of day again, the-only-job-you'll-have-on-this-street-is-sweeping-it, that kind of kill. Why should it bother you either way? Sounds like you're a man after my own "heart" (like we really have one, NOT). Profits, profits, profits, money, money, money. To h*ll with everything else.

Your problem is that you take things to far. Duty to the law is achieved through duty to profit, breaking the law is usually unprofitable. Of course sometimes following the law is unprofitable, look up "cost of compliance" in regards to environmental regulation, especially look it up in relationship to Bush's time as governor of Texas. You'll learn a lot. When following the law is more expensive than breaking the law guess what businesses do? They just pay the fines and don't worry about it. That's a fine example of something being good for business (the path of least cost) and bad for society (polution), the fix is to modify the fines and the environmental laws until it's cheaper to follow the law than to break it, but you have to maintain balance, just raising the fines might make both costs too high then companies either go away or cease to exist.

Corporations don't have a duty to any constitution, they exist to make money, they don't vote, they don't fight in wars, they can't be elected for office. They pay taxes, that's about as deep as it gets.

They also don't have a duty to "the people", except for the members of the people that are investors in the company, their duty to them is to create profit so these people have a return on their investment.

Words do mean things, and when you repeatedly take things well beyond their logical conclusion you show a desperation that is frankly embarassing. Anything can be taken too far, that doesn't mean it's bad. If you drink too much water you'll die, that doesn't mean you shouldn't drink water. If you let business do anything they want they'll turn into the mob, that doesn't mean you shouldn't avoid unnecessary regulation.

The sophist here is yourself, taking everything too far, and running in terror from inconvenient points. As a person who worked for WalMart, whose business model is built on undercutting competition, which you say is immoral, you're part of your own problem. Welcome to reality, your own life experience clearly shows that your position is wrong at its face.

446 - "A bad econcomy kills/disables millions and disables our country and our military.
By that logic WWII should never have been fought."

A bad economy and runaway inflation created Hitler. (I have a postage stamp for 3 billion marks), and caused him to purge millions of Jews, and caused WWII.

The lack of oil and steel (bad economy) caused the Japenese to expand and and start WWII in Asia, killing millions.

A bad economy caused Stalin to purge millions of Kulaks.

A bad economy caused the starvation of hundreds of thousands perhaps millions in Asia/india - before the Green revolution.

Mao Tse Tung killed millions in China because of the bad economy.

Bad economies in Africa are currently killing millions.

Have you ever been to a country where the people are so poor they steal your letter before the stamp is cancelled to steal your stamp, because they are so poor? I have.

Bad economies kill millions, and when we in the US have to get involved, we lose thousands and hundreds of thousands.

One thing that you have to do is compare the return on investment to the level of risk incurred. This is known as "economic profit."

If you put your money at risk, and get an ROI equal to or less than risk-free investments (such as T-bills and tax-free municipal bonds), then you aren't really making a profit.

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