Posted on 03/28/2004 6:48:44 AM PST by truthandlife
That's exactly my position. However, it is not beyond the pale that priests could show up in roman collars as invited guests and technically would be witnesses but have no key role in the ceremony. I never heard of one valid catholic wedding where a priest or deacon did not lead the proceedings in an official capacity representing the church.
So the matter is still up for grabs as far as I am concerned. But there's no sense of continuing to hammer away at it because it is really only relevant as a matter of scandal to faithful catholics and not to those outside the church unless as possible further evidence of duplicity or getting around technicalities.
Now for all I know, everything may be perfectly in order, but the fact that there are probably a few quaint little Catholic churches on the island leads me to believe that the tent ceremony may have been to get it on record for public consumption or just because they preferred an outdoor wedding on the bride's own property because it might be more romantic than a church wedding.
As easy as annulments are to get, I would be surprised if there weren't one but sometimes it is a very lengthy process if the applicants were both baptized Christians and how long it took the respondent to respond and if it was resisted by the respondent. The one who files gets the jump on the other party, and can build a case against them without having to reveal any of their own psychological immaturity or whatever. If he cheated on her, he wouldn't necessarily have to include that in the annulment if he was the one who initiated it. I said if. I am not accusing him of cheating on her because I don't know. If she was depressed, a case could be built on that alone as indicating something or other.
BEGIN QUOTE
Kerry's former wife seeks privacy By WALT WILLIAMS Chronicle Staff Writer
Julia Thorne of Bozeman has one request: To be left alone.
But that's not easy to do when you're the ex-wife of the man who may be the next president of the United States. Thorne is the former wife of Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, who at the moment looks to be the Democratic candidate for president.
She is also the mother of their two daughters, who are sometimes seen on the campaign trail with Kerry.
Thorne's name has been tossed around frequently in recent days as Kerry's public and private lives have come under increasing scrutiny by the media. But she's not granting interviews, family friend Jon Catton said Friday.
"Julia cherishes her privacy," he said. "She wants to be left alone."
One of the few interviews she has granted was to the Boston Globe, which ran a profile of her last March.
Thorne married Kerry in 1970, when she was 26, the newspaper reported. The couple separated in 1982 and divorced six years later.
She became severely depressed during the divorce. She later recounted her experiences in, "You Are Not Alone," her book about coping with depression.
She also is the author of "A Change of Heart," a work about dealing with divorce.
Thorne moved West several years ago, first living in Jackson Hole and then coming to Bozeman. She is married to architect Richard Charlesworth. The couple reportedly have been active in the Greater Yellowstone Coalition and in raising money for the new Bozeman Public Library.
Although she has said she believes Kerry would be a great president, Thorne wants to stay out of politics.
However, politics isn't so easy to shake off.
Conservative talk-show host Rush Limbaugh and columnist Ann Coulter have dragged up Throne's previous relationship with Kerry in hopes of somehow smearing the candidate's reputation. And the Chronicle was recently contacted by a British newspaper wanting information about Thorne and Montana's political climate.
Thorne, however, started treatments for cancer on Nov. 3 at an out-of-state facility, Catton said.
"She has several months of recovery ahead of her," he said. "This challenge is her sole focus now. It is the focus of her husband, her daughters, her friends.
"Julia does not want to answer questions from the media," he said. "She hopes her desire for privacy will be respected and honored thoroughly."
END QUOTE
On another website here, it is stated that Kerry married his first wife on her Long Island Estate which begs the question, "Was that a catholic wedding?"
EXCERPT BEGIN QUOTE
Kerry's wives have been incredibly rich women. When Kerry married his first wife, Julia Stimson Thorne, on her family's 200-acre Long Island estate, she wore a wedding dress first worn by a direct ancestor so well-connected that George Washington and Alexander Hamilton attended her nuptials
EXCERPT END QUOTE
Reason I veered off into this is that if the second wife's remarriage was in a catholic church, that would tend to settle the annulment question as she couldn't have gotten remarried without one. I haven't found anything on that.
Why did I post this and the previous newspaper article? To get it into FR archives.
Kerry and Thorne were separated in 1982 and divorced July 25, 1988. "After 14 years as a political wife," she wrote in A Change of Heart, her book about depression, "I associated politics only with anger, fear and loneliness." The marriage was formally annulled by the Roman Catholic Church in 1997. Thorne later married an architect named Richard Charlesworth, and moved to Bozeman, Montana, where she became active in local environmental groups such as the Greater Yellowstone Coalition.
Kerry and Teresa Simões-Ferreira Heinz, the widow of Pennsylvania Senator H. John Heinz III and formerly a United Nations translator, met at the UN-sponsored Earth Summit at Rio de Janeiro in 1992. They married on May 26, 1995 in Nantucket, Massachusetts. Kerry has three stepsons with Teresa: John Heinz Jr., André Heinz and Christopher Heinz (b. ~1973).
So, according to the info, the second marriage took place in 1995, prior to formal annulment in 1997, which means Kerry was living in sin then, and perhaps even now. This will also explain why the second marriage did not take place in a church, probably because it was NOT a valid marriage then, or even now.
If that is the case, the Kerry's touting of his "catholic status" would be a major blow to his credibility, so is that of his bishop who should own up about Kerry's true status.
I am pinging colleen because she is in Boston and perhaps could get more info on this.
Unless they later formalized it privately in a small catholic ceremony (I attended such a small ceremony shortly after RCIA when a divorced/annulled couple tied the knot officially).
Interesting. I'm trying to find out more about his first marriage which appears wasn't in a church either but on her family estate on LI. I can't ascertain if she was catholic or not, but they lived in Rome for a time so one would assume she was catholic as well. She couldn't have married the second husband in a catholic church without an annulment, but I can't find anything on that.
The other thing is that normally one must apply for an annulment in the diocese in which one was married, which would be one of the ones in New York in this case. I think it is possible to have that waived, but maybe someone more knowledgeable would know if that is true. It is my understanding that for compelling reason, one can apply for an annulment in the diocese of one's current domicile (Boston).
I'll get back to you. Thanks for looking it over. I missed the delay between the second marriage and the annulment (all statements pointing to which are not sourced but that's the best we can find, take somebody's word for it).
Do you have a pdf reader?
I think it is reasonable to assume that the process was begun else why the adverse reaction of the first wife? Maybe he backed off for awhile after that, or maybe she refused to cooperate for a time and caused a delay.
It's put out there that it was granted, but it is questionable because of their skirting the rules on other things.
Somebody is saying that there was one and it is being picked up and run with. But there is no convincing proof. Somebody managing the campaign who isn't too concerned about the truth could be lying about the whole thing on Kerry's behalf.
I couldn't access it; will try again when I have time, probably not tonight. A widow? First wife a widow? That's kind of odd but entirely possible.
The point of Kerry and his current wife if indeed had their invalid marriage (outside of church) convalidated probably won't help Kerry's present friction with Church teachings, and worse yet if the marriage is still outside of the Church.
Absolutely. At least for a period of time. More proof that taking the teachings of the church seriously is for peons. I don't know if the above is going to matter to someone who is in a position to do something about it.
From reading about his life, which doesn't seem to involve any particular scandal, I get the impression that religion is only a matter of convenience from which to serve as a springboard for one's political platform. I get the impression, from what I read about the "conversion" of the grandfather and family was more a matter of exigency than spiritual conviction. He seems to have inherited a blase attitude about his religion.
I shudder to think of it.
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