"Messiah is a matter of belief"

1/23/04 | Rabbi Marc Gellman, Monsignor Tom Hartman

[Catholicguy]

Question; "I am Jewish but have received very little Jewish education. Basically, I know that Jesus was a Jew, as were his early followers. Why did this small group of Jews believe Jesus was the Messiah, while the great majority of Jews denied his Messianic claim? And what are we supposed to be looking for in the Messiah, anyway?

Answer "...The evidence indicating that Jesus' resurrection was a fact, Christians affirm, are the many eyewitnesses described in the Gospels, including the apostles and others who saw the empty tomb and whose testimony was recorded in what became the New Testament. On the other side are those who say that since the evidence of Jesus' resurrection all comes from his followers and from accounts recorded in the New Testament, Jesus resurection cannot be trusted to be an objective historical account...."

<>End of this partial quote from "The God Squad" column published today in the Palm Beach Post.<>

I sent this letter to the Palm Beach Post this morning and I know they won't post it. (They refuse to post nearly all of my letters. Too Christian I suspect).I post it here because I think the historical references are useful as apologetic tools

"The God Squad" cites those opposed to the Messiah as claiming "...Jesus' resurrection cannot be trusted to be an objective historical account...."

Really?

Why do we suppose the Creed references the historical fact Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate? "For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried."

As the Governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, was required to keep Tiberius fully informed as to any important events occuring in his district. He did so. He drafted an account of all the important events that had taken place in reference to Jesus and these acts of Pontius Pilate were received and kept in the archives of the Roman Senate.

Tacitus, rehearsing the history of the burning of Rome attributes it to the Christians, "so called from Christ, who had been put to death during the reign of Tiberius, while Pontius Pilate was governing Judea."

It is interesting to note not a single early enemy of Christianity called this historical account into question when it could have been so easily contradicted had these events not occured. Where is the evidence any pagan opposed the early Christian apologists by contravening this history?

The early Christian apologists cited the acts of Pontius Pilate. St. Justin Martyr quoted the words from the acts of Pontius Pilate, "Jesus was fastened to the cross with nails through his hands and feet, and those who had crucified him afterwards cast lots for his garments, which they divided amongst them."

St. Justin adds, "This is what you can easily know by reference to the acts written under Pontius Pilate."

Tertullian writes, "Pilate, somewhat a Christian in his conscience, wrote an account of all these things regarding Christ to Tiberius, then Emperor. Henceforth, the Emperors would have believed in Jesus Christ if the Caesars had not been the slaves of the world or if Christians could have been Caesars. Be that as it may, when Tiberius, under whose reign the Christain name was spread throughout the world, had learned from Palestine all the facts that proved the divinity of Christ, he urged the Senate to place him in the rank of the gods and gave his own vote for this purpose. The Senate, not admiring the proposal rejected it. The Emperor persisted in his views, and threatened with his anger any one who should accuse the Christians." Then, speaking of the miracles that occured at the death of our Lord, he says; "You have the account thereof in your archives."

Eusebius of Caesarea (Church Historian), "The miraculous resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ having become famous and it being an ancient custom that the governors of provinces should send to the Emperor an account of anything new that turned up in their administration, so that he might be fully informed of everything that came to pass, Pontius Pilate acquainted Tiberius with the resurrection of the Saviour, which was known to everyone in Palestine. He (Pilate) also remarked that he had learned that Jesus had performed many miracles , and had, since His resurrection, been recognised by many persons as a God. Tiberius, having heard these things, mentioined them to the Senate, and proposed that Jesus Christ should be placed in the rank of the gods. The Senate opposed the project under the pretext that there was an ancient law which forbade any person to be admitted into the rank of the gods except by a decree of the Senate; but the real reason of the refusal was that the Christian Religion, being divine, should not be established by the authority of men. The Senate having therefore rejected the proposal, the Emperor did not cease to maintain his opinion and attempted nothing against the doctrine of Jesus Christ."

Is it too much to ask of "The God Squad" that they read some history before they undertake the task of telling others about the Messiah

<> end of letter<>

I didn't cite Josephus, Tranquillas, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, ect because I wanted to keep the letter to a publishable length.

[Catholicguy]

fyi

[xzins]

Awesome letter, CG.

Could you write the ENTIRE LETTER that you would have written had you chosen to do so?

I'd like to see it. I'm sure I'd file it and use it with my people.

Thanks, brother.

[Just mythoughts]

Psalms 22 penned by King David, hundreds of years before the event, and spoken by Christ hanging on the cross.

[StonyBurk]

In my opinion some Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah though many did NOT because the prophecy of Messiah remained un-
fullfilled for so long--and Roman rule over Judah and
Jerusalem had lasted so long --and at the time--seemed
incapable of being removed. It is also difficult for a
people expecting Messiah to come as a conqueror -not as
a Babe.i.e. we humans tend to see mostly what we are looking
for--not necessarily what is. And,I believe, when the Romans
did NOT differentiat between the followers of that Rabbi from Galilee and most other Jews it aggravated the schism.

[Capriole]

This is a beautiful summation, and I very much appreciate you publishing it here. But if I were trying to explain why Jesus was accepted as the Messiah I would not use historical documentatino of His existence and work; I would concentrate more on the way Jesus fulfilled ancient prophecies about the coming of and operations of the Messiah. I would also point out that Jesus explicitly referred to Himself in terms that only the Messiah could use, and say that such a Person gave us the choice of believing that He was either insane, profoundly evil, or exactly what He said He was. He did not leave us the alternative of thinking Him just a very good man, because good men don't claim to be God. So we have a choice to make, and the evidence, incredible as it may be, is overwhelming that He is who He said He is.

[plain talk]

Thanks. If you have links to sites that contain more information along these lines regarding historical accounts, I'd appreciate it.

[goldstategop]

Yes but those who know Hebrew know the verse has a different rendering. It does not mean kiss the son but a reference to ritual purity. The Gospels as we have them come from a Greek Gentile environment. Who knows if they authors were conversant with the original Hebrew Tanakh? If they been a number of glaring errors would have been avoided. As an apologetic, Psalm 22 proves nothing concerning the Messiah.

[Dave S]

Excuse me but where in this "historical" record is there anyone not associated with Christ (or a later member of the church) saying that He was resurrected from the dead or that he was the Messiah? Do you find any reference to Jesus in the Roman record, not in the reports of Christian apologists? The Emporer Constantine converted to Christianity in the third century for political reasons not as a matter of faith. I doubt that the Emporers really worried about Gods other than themselves.

As far as no one at the time saying he wasnt resurrected, the lack of evidence is not evidence. Do you doubt that the Sanhedrin and others didnt dispute the resurrection at the time. Paul was sent out to wipe out the Christians because they were spreading blasphemy. If EVERYONE in Judea knew that Christ was the risen Messiah, then why didnt they all become Christians? Are you saying that the average Jew was too dumb or hard hearted to recognize something that miraculous if everyone knew it? Get a grip. Christ rose from the dead but there is no reason to get bent out of shape because a Rabbi today says that this is a matter of faith, not of history.

The fact that you are constantly writing letters to the paper probably is what has caused them to think you are someone who is unhinged or a kook.

[txzman]

You need to do some serious reading my man. Start with Josh McDowell's 2 volume set of references to exactly this titled "Evidence that Demands a verdict'. Then come back and post - except your attitude will be forever changed if you really read it.

[Catholicguy]

When I have some time I will draft one. Thanks,brother

[tiamat]

Very interesting stuff.

There is no doubt that the Romans had good records documenting the Crucifixion. Some of those documents are in the Vatican Library right now.
So we can surmise: the execution of one Jesus of Nazereth ( aka Jeshua ben Joseph) IS an historical fact.

Does anyone here know:
Are there Roman records that document the body of Jesus having gone missing?

I am NOT a Christian, but this sort of thing fascinates me. I do not ask to mock or cast aspersians. I really am curious and would like to know.

Thank you.

Tia

[Catholicguy]

:) Had I written just how it was that Jesus fulfilled the Prophecies, the Palm Beach Post would...

A. Have to publish a special 45 page edition...

B. Have me arrested for being a real Christian in an insane County.

[Catholicguy]

The fact that you are constantly writing letters to the paper probably is what has caused them to think you are someone who is unhinged or a kook.

No. That isn't the reason. I speak on the phone with the editors and regularly exchange Emails with them.. They know, firsthand, I am an unhinged kook.

Have a nice day.

[thinktwice]

Catholic prelates and monks had about 1400 years to gather, control, choose, comtemplate and rework biblical era tales before Guttenberg invented the printing press.

If we can't trust many of today's bishops, why should anyone trust those in earlier eras?

[CFIIIMEIATP737]

I read a book last year that might be of interest to you. It is "The Archko Volume" by Mahan. It is the result of research done in the 1800's in the Vatican's library. For the most part, the book is a compilation of official reports from Herod and Pilate to the Roman senate about Jesus. Two reports from Caiaphas to the Sanhedrin are in this book. These I found to be most interesting.

Thank you for your post.

[Dave S]

And what exactly am I to find in this two volume set? A record of hundreds of thousands of "Jew on the street" reports from 4 or 6 AD that they saw Jesus ascend into the Heavens like he was being beamed up by the mother ship?

If You had read my post you would know I dont question the resurrection but I do question the author's claim that it's recognized historical fact. It was not a historical fact to the Jews in Judea at the time. Those who believed it were perceived to be blasphemers and worse and Paul himself was sent out to destroy them. If EVERYONE knew that Jesus rose from the dead, then everyone in Jerusalem other than perhaps the Romans would have been a Christian.

The thing that proves the resurrection to me is the impact it had on the apostles. Most faced death as a result of their beliefs. And if they were faking it then they knew that God would get them in the afterlife. They got nothing out of it so its difficult to believe that they would have thrown everything away for a lie.

[Catholicguy]

Excuse me but where in this "historical" record is there anyone not associated with Christ (or a later member of the church) saying that He was resurrected from the dead or that he was the Messiah?

I have the original Acts of Pontius Pilate but because you called me a kook, I won't show them to you.

[antiRepublicrat]

You are debating against the wrong claim. You are trying to make a case that Yeshua existed in the first place, while the God Squad was claiming historical doubt only for his purported resurrection.

[Catholicguy]

LOL Bishop Tacitus? Pope Pliny? Saint Tiberius?