Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

LINGUISTICS: Early Date for the Birth of Indo-European Languages
Science Magazine ^ | 2003-11-28 | Michael Balter

Posted on 11/28/2003 10:24:23 AM PST by Lessismore

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-38 next last

1 posted on 11/28/2003 10:24:23 AM PST by Lessismore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Lessismore; blam
The difficulty I see is that Hittite is heavily over laid with Luuvian, Non Indoeuropean. If you look at the distribution of Indoeureopean languages the central point seems to be Blams favoriate, Eastern Shore of the Black Sea.
2 posted on 11/28/2003 10:33:54 AM PST by Little Bill (The Bard of Avon Rules, The Duke of Cambridge was a Mincing Quean.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lessismore
Origin of language: try the Garden, as God walked with Adam in the cool of the day.
3 posted on 11/28/2003 10:34:48 AM PST by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lessismore
So does this mean white people can no longer be referred to as 'Caucasian'?

Looks like it, if those Kurgan horsemen take a licking in the equations. We can call ourselves 'Anatolian' and confuse everyone.
4 posted on 11/28/2003 10:35:30 AM PST by proxy_user
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Little Bill
"Glottochronology"

As when you slice through a tongue and count the rings.

5 posted on 11/28/2003 10:39:28 AM PST by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Lessismore
Previous thread on the same subject.

Mother of all Indo-European Languages Was Born In Turkey

6 posted on 11/28/2003 10:39:40 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
What language would that have been?
7 posted on 11/28/2003 10:40:16 AM PST by ASA Vet ("Right-wing Internet wacko")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Little Bill
"Noah's Flood and the Nostratic Dispersion"

The Nostratic macrofamily of languages was discovered by linguists. It appears that Indo-European, Semitic, Dravidian, Egyptian, Sumerian, and other language families have a common origin.

Archaeology is now providing us with evidence of a mass dispersal of peoples from the flooded Black Sea around 5600 BC which could explain the origins of Nostratic.

Here are a few quotations from NOAH'S FLOOD, THE NEW SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES ABOUT THE EVENT THAT CHANGED HISTORY, by William Ryan and Walter Pitman. N.Y., Simon and Schuster, 1998.

Page 188: "The ocean bursting through Bosporus in 5600 B.C. so violently cleaved Europe from Anatolia that it would have been several years before anyone dared make passage across."

Page 189 Map "Inferred human migrations west and northwest into Europe in the wake of the Black Sea flood"

The map shows five migrations.

1. Danilo-Hvar from Bosporus, around Greece, and north into Serbia

2. Hamangians from Rumanian coast southwards into Bulgaria and Thrace

3. Vincas along Danube through Belgrade and up to Budapest. Origin of famous Vinca culture with primitive writing.

4. Linear Pottery Farmers (LBK) through Moldavia across central Europe to Paris

5. Proto-Indoeuropeans up the Dnieper River into Russia

"It seemed clear to Vasic that the Vinca had built on the deserted ruins of an older culture. Makers of lovely wattle and daub houses and fine incised pottery, the Vinca appeared abruptly on the plains of Bulgaria within a century and a half after the flood, settling also on river terraces of the southern Hungarian plain and in mountain valleys as far south as the Vardar River in Macedonia. They constructed well-planned permanent villages on leveled ground with parallel rows of houses separated by streets."

Page 190: (Vinca) "They plastered their floors with white clay. But instead of constructing their walls of mud-brick, they built them from split timber planks or hewn posts interwoven with twigs and covered with a thick layer of mud plaster. Archaeologists have uncovered shrines decorated by bucrania, attached to a wall beam as in the shrines of Anatolia.

"Vasic saw no continuity between the Vinca culture and the underlying strata of their predecessors but rather thought the Vinca were outsiders who settled on a previously abandoned site. Their art and pottery were so exceptional and in such contrast to the prior occupants that Vasic mistakenly identified this 'as a center of Aegean civilization in the second millennium B.C.'" It was actually over 3,000 years older than he thought.

"LBK culture....their longhouse building style, never before seen in Europe, these huge timber-framed houses, up to 150 feet in length, were organized into villages founded exclusively on the fertile loess soil blown across Eurasia during the sky-darkening sandstorms of the last Ice Age. THESE DWELLINGS WERE THE LARGEST FREESTANDING BUILDINGS IN THE WORLD FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS (emphasis added)"

Page 191: "A very striking feature of the LBK is the homogeneity in pottery design, stone tools, village plan, house shape, burial practices, and economy over the vast territory into which these people appeared, suggesting that their dispersal was almost instantaneous. Experts specializing in pottery from Belgium can readily recognize shards from Moldavia as if they had been crafted nearby in France. The domesticated plants and animals show practically no variation from village to village across a span of a thousand miles or more. But there is a dramatic cultural gap between the preexisting sparse hunter-gatherer population and the LBK homesteaders." This is another blow to the theory of Renfrew and Cavalli-Sforza that Indo-European languages spread with neolithic farmers from Turkey. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong direction.

Danilo-Hvar "They crafted a now-famous pot decorated with a sailing ship, depicting masts and rigging dated at about 4000 BC." They imported obsidian from Italy.

Page 194 Map "Inferred human migrations northeast into Asia and southeast into the Levant, Egypt, and Mesopotamia" Going clockwise, the following migrations are shown:

1. Proto-Indoeuropeans up the Dnieper into Russia

2. Proto-Indo-Europeans up the Don into Russia and eastwards to the Urals and south of the Urals and from there to Kazakhstan and western China

3. Ubaids from Georgia eastwards and then southwards to Sumer in Iraq

4. "Semites" from southeastern Black Sea to Halaf and Abu Hureyra in Iraq and Syria. This one is doubtful.

5. From just east of Istanbul we have a migration which branches into

....a. migration to Hacilar, in western Turkey

...b. migration of "Predynastic Egyptians" to Çatal Hüyük and Mersin in Turkey, along the Mediterranean coast past Jericho into Egypt.

It might be more accurate to call the second branch "Proto-Afroasiatic Speakers" . Hacilar and Çatal Hüyük might come from a different branch originating farther west than the Afroasiatic branch.

"The craftsmen who reoccupied Hacilar after its desertion created sophisticated painted pottery, more technologically advanced in style and fabrication than any contemporary pottery found elsewhere in the entire Near East."

Page 196: Caption "The elaborately decorated pottery that appeared in Syria and Mesopotamia in the centuries bracketing the Black Sea flood." "Others have assigned a northern or Anatolian origin to the [beautiful colored pottery of] Halaf."

"As Moore has pointed out, there was a sizable influx of farming peoples along the coast of Lebanon and in its valleys in the mid sixth millennium B.C. Were these refugees from the flood?

"Egypt had experienced a rapid cultural and economic change during the same period, at the time of the flood. A new flint industry was introduced, epitomized by two-sided flaked tools, which was much more in common with the industry of Çatal Hüyük, Hacilar, and Jericho than with the preceding African designs. In addition, the art of pottery making appeared for the first time in the Nile Valley. Domesticated cereals and animals with direct genetic affinity to Asia were also suddenly adopted, along with the first systematic practice of planting and harvesting in fields watered from the Nile." The similarity of the Egyptian language with the Semitic languages of southwest origin also indicates a common origin.

Page 197: Advanced farmers with a culture similar to the Halafian of Iraq settled along the Rioni River between the Black and Caspian Seas right after the flood.

"Carbon 14 dating places the settling of the Transcaucasus contemporaneously with the beginning of the LBK dispersal, the defense and fall of Hacilar, the arrival of newcomers in the Levant--particularly in the valleys and along the coast of Lebanon and at Tell Ard Tlaili in Palestine--the introduction of Asian domesticates in Egypt, and the flooding of the Black Sea." We are probably dealing with the related Kartvelian, Sumerian, and Elamo-Dravidian language families, which form a cluster within ...[Message truncated]

8 posted on 11/28/2003 10:44:50 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: billorites
I hated statistics but they come in handy on occasion, my brother has a Masters and most of a Doctorate in Lingustics, math challanged, used to help out occasionally.
9 posted on 11/28/2003 10:46:41 AM PST by Little Bill (The Bard of Avon Rules, The Duke of Cambridge was a Mincing Quean.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Little Bill
Here is the site of an excellent map of language dispersal but, for some reason, I can't get the map to post over here. Will someone else give it a try?

Map

10 posted on 11/28/2003 10:51:24 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: blam
Tripod has a block on links, I think.
11 posted on 11/28/2003 10:56:02 AM PST by Little Bill (The Bard of Avon Rules, The Duke of Cambridge was a Mincing Quean.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Scenic Sounds
You probably knew this already.
12 posted on 11/28/2003 11:06:09 AM PST by Amelia ("We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lessismore
"The characteristics of languages and biomolecular sequences evolve in very different ways," says Tandy Warnow, a computer scientist at the University of Texas, Austin. Gray and Atkinson "used techniques that are not appropriate for their data."
Like counting apples as oranges.
13 posted on 11/28/2003 11:13:58 AM PST by samtheman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Little Bill
I became much more aware of the connections between languages when I had to learn Greek and Hebrew for seminary. Were I 50 years younger I would love to delve deeper into languages.
14 posted on 11/28/2003 11:18:08 AM PST by WVNan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: WVNan
My brother, who has an ear for languages, says it is like singing, every language has a rhythm pick it up you can speak it. I am tone deaf. Then there is logic, depends on how God put your mind together, I guess.
15 posted on 11/28/2003 11:26:48 AM PST by Little Bill (The Bard of Avon Rules, The Duke of Cambridge was a Mincing Quean.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: blam
This image? (select "view", then "source", in your browser for how to do this)


16 posted on 11/28/2003 11:59:06 AM PST by SteveH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: blam
Hah, looks like the server subsequently boobytrapped the original gif link.

Anyway,

<img src="name">

where "name" is the link (eg, an alphanumeric string ending in ".gif" or "jpg") (usually) adds an image...

17 posted on 11/28/2003 12:07:07 PM PST by SteveH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: SteveH
http://glen-gordon.tripod.com/LANGUAGE/NOSTRATIC/STEPPE/BlackCas6000_v3.gif
18 posted on 11/28/2003 12:08:03 PM PST by SteveH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: SteveH; blam
Here ya go guys.


19 posted on 11/28/2003 12:23:37 PM PST by ASA Vet ("Right-wing Internet wacko")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: All
if you enjoyed this thread, you would probably enjoy a book by a berkeley prof
john mcwhortten "the power of bable" (2002)
shows the similiarty between biological and linguistic changes.
20 posted on 11/28/2003 12:59:36 PM PST by genghis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-38 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson