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HAS THE VATICAN CHANGED ITS MIND ABOUT ISLAM?
Town Hall ^ | November 10, 2003 | Diana West

Posted on 11/10/2003 5:16:41 AM PST by JesseHousman

You just might think you've struck a nerve when a guy who goes to work every day at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to promote interfaith dialogue -- someone who keeps people talking -- hangs up on you. You've certainly struck out, anyway. But "dialogue" with John Borelli, the bishops' staff man on Catholic-Muslim relations, didn't hold much promise after he said he wouldn't comment on an extraordinary article about the desperate plight of Christians in Islamic societies that appeared in La Civilta Cattolica, a Jesuit magazine thought of as the semi-official voice of the Vatican.

"I won't comment on an article that I have not read in its entirety," Mr. Borelli said, noting that the English translation of the Italian article, "Christians in Islamic Countries" by Giuseppe De Rosa S.I., available at www.chiesa.espressonline.it/english under the headline "The Church and Islam. 'La Civilta Cattolica' Breaks the Ceasefire," is incomplete. (It is a 3,083-word excerpt.) "I don't know what the point of the article is."

Here's the point: For the first time in almost 30 years, a source close to the heart of the Catholic Church (articles in La Civilta Cattolica are approved by the secretary of state of the Vatican) has published what Vatican-watcher Sandro Magister calls "a strikingly severe" account of the Christian condition under Islamic rule. The article may represent a shift, if not a break, in the long-standing Vatican policy of silence on the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries.

The article highlights the "seemingly rather curious fact" that wherever Islam has imposed itself by conquest -- in what is now Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, and in the regions of historic Mesopotamia and Palestine -- "Christianity, which had been extraordinarily vigorous and rooted for centuries, practically disappeared." And, the article further notes, "for almost a thousand years, Europe was under constant threat from Islam, which twice put its survival in serious danger."

The explanation? As if taking a page from the historian Bat Ye'or, the article cites the Islamic precepts of jihad (holy war) and dhimmitude (inferior status of non-Muslims). It also stipulates that there are two meanings of jihad -- the spiritual war, or struggle, to be faithful to the teachings of the Koran, and the literal war that is waged to spread Islam. Both meanings, it says, are "equally essential and must not be dissociated, as if one could exist without the other." The article continues: "Obedience to the precept of 'holy war' explains why the history of Islam is one of unending warfare for the conquest of infidel lands." This same "obedience" has led to recent anti-Christian violence in Algeria, Pakistan, Nigeria, Java, East Timor, the Moluccas and, most dramatically, Sudan. Little wonder, as the article also reports, that between roughly one-quarter and one-third of the estimated Christian population of the Middle East has emigrated over the past decade to the free world.

Such tidings could bring a pause in the "dialogue," but they provide plenty to talk about. "I personally welcome the greater straightforwardness evident in these statements," said Richard John Neuhaus, a Catholic priest and editor of First Things magazine. "Of course, we are committed to (interfaith) dialogue, but we ask our Muslim interlocutors to take seriously some of the difficulties posed by Islam." As examples, he listed Islam's failure to allow religious freedom, its persecution of Christian minorities and its hateful attitude toward Jews. Dialogue, Neuhaus said, "cannot be purchased at the price of telling the truth."

But what is true now was true in the past: What accounts for the new frankness? The American Enterprise Institute's Michael Novak wonders whether the Vatican has been encouraged to speak out both by the failure of the so-called "Arab street" to revolt against U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and by the large numbers of Muslims Mr. Novak believes are seeking human rights in Iran and elsewhere. "My own hypothesis," he said, "is that change in the Arab world has allowed the Vatican to be more candid."

Others are not so sanguine. Nina Shea, director of the Center for Religious Freedom at Freedom House, suggests that the new frankness in Rome may be linked to the increasingly dire plight of Christians at the hands of Muslims in Sudan, Nigeria and other parts of Africa. The situation in Europe, where immigration policies have created large, unassimilated Muslim communities within traditionally Christian, secular societies, could also be influencing Vatican thinking. "Before the 1990s," Ms. Shea said, "the biggest persecutors of Christians were communist countries." With the fall of the Soviet Union, radical Islam took communism's place. "We're still very naive," she said. "We need to educate people."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; christians; islamictreatment; muslims; terror; vatican
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...the new frankness in Rome may be linked to the increasingly dire plight of Christians at the hands of Muslims in Sudan, Nigeria and other parts of Africa.

And about time!

1 posted on 11/10/2003 5:16:42 AM PST by JesseHousman
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To: JesseHousman
By definition, since Islam rejects Christ as the Son of Man, it must be of Satanic origin...

woops -- did that slip?
2 posted on 11/10/2003 5:24:38 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: JesseHousman
"What accounts for the new frankness?"

It is the increasing awareness, worldwide but especially in the West, since the September 11, 2001, attack on the U.S., of the violent, imperialistic, and satanic nature of Islam.

"the history of Islam is one of unending warfare for the conquest of infidel lands"

The people of the West have long avoided conflict with Muslims, and still would like to avoid it, but it is becoming increasingly obvious that their choice is confrontation or capitulation.

4 posted on 11/10/2003 6:39:39 AM PST by Savage Beast (Happiness is the best IQ test.)
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To: JesseHousman
Before the Vatican admits the truth about radical Islam, I expect to see the current pope running the Boston Marathon. Not likely to happen
5 posted on 11/10/2003 7:38:45 AM PST by joyful1
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To: JesseHousman
From The Baltimore Catechism:...

LESSON ELEVENTH: On the Church

Q. 484. How was the true religion preserved from Adam till the coming of Christ?
A. The true religion was preserved from Adam till the coming of Christ by the patriarchs, prophets and other holy men whom God appointed and inspired to teach His Will and Revelations to the people, and to remind them of the promised Redeemer.

Q. 485. Who were the prophets, and what was their chief duty?
A. The prophets were men to whom God gave a knowledge of future events connected with religion, that they might foretell them to His people and thus give proof that the message came from God. Their chief duty was to foretell the time, place and circumstances of Our Saviour's coming into the world, that men might know when and where to look for Him, and might recognize Him when He came.

Q. 486. How could they be saved who lived before Christ became man?
A. They who lived before Christ became man could be saved by belief in the Redeemer to come and by keeping the Commandments of God.

Q. 487. Was the true religion universal before the coming of Christ?
A. The true religion was not universal before the coming of Christ. It was confined to one people -- the descendants of Abraham. All other nations worshipped false gods.

Q. 488. Which are the means instituted by Our Lord to enable men at all times to share in the fruits of the Redemption?
A. The means instituted by Our Lord to enable men at all times to share in the fruits of His Redemption are the Church and the Sacraments.

Q. 489. What is the Church?
A. The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head.

Q. 490. How may the members of the Church on earth be divided?
A. The members of the Church on earth may be divided into those who teach and those who are taught. Those who teach, namely, the Pope, bishops and priests, are called the Teaching Church, or simply the Church. Those who are taught are called the Believing Church, or simply the faithful.

Q. 491. What is the duty of the Teaching Church?
A. The duty of the Teaching Church is to continue the work Our Lord began upon earth, namely, to teach revealed truth, to administer the Sacraments and to labor for the salvation of souls.

Q. 492. What is the duty of the faithful?
A. The duty of the faithful is to learn the revealed truths taught; to receive the Sacraments, and to aid in saving souls by their prayers, good works and alms.

Q. 493. What do you mean by "profess the faith of Christ"?
A. By "profess the faith of Christ" we mean, believe all the truths and practice the religion He has taught.

Q. 494. What do we mean by "lawful pastors"?
A. By "lawful pastors" we mean those in the Church who have been appointed by lawful authority and who have, therefore, a right to rule us. The lawful pastors in the Church are: Every priest in his own parish; every bishop in his own diocese, and the Pope in the whole Church.

Q. 495. Who is the invisible Head of the Church?
A. Jesus Christ is the invisible Head of the Church.

Q. 496. Who is the visible Head of the Church?
A. Our Holy Father the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible Head of the Church.

Q. 497. What does "vicar" mean?
A. Vicar is a name used in the Church to designate a person who acts in the name and authority of another. Thus a Vicar Apostolic is one who acts in the name of the Pope, and a Vicar General is one who acts in the name of the bishop.

Q. 498. Could any one be Pope without being Bishop of Rome?
A. One could not be Pope without being Bishop of Rome, and whoever is elected Pope must give up his title to any other diocese and take the title of Bishop of Rome.

Q. 499. Why is the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, the visible Head of the Church?
A. The Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the visible Head of the Church because he is the successor of St. Peter, whom Christ made the chief of the Apostles and the visible Head of the Church.

Q. 500. Why are Catholics called "Roman"?
A. Catholics are called Roman to show that they are in union with the true Church founded by Christ and governed by the Apostles under the direction of St. Peter, by divine appointment the Chief of the Apostles, who founded the Church of Rome and was its first bishop.

Q. 501. By what name is a bishop's diocese sometimes called?
A. A bishop's diocese is sometimes called his see. The diocese of Rome, on account of its authority and dignity, is called the Holy See, and its bishop is called the Holy Father or Pope. Pope means father.

Q. 502. What do we call the right by which St. Peter or his successor has always been the head of the Church and of all its bishops?
A. We call the right by which St. Peter or his successor has always been the head of the Church, and of all its bishops, the Primacy of St. Peter or of the Pope. Primacy means holding first place.

Q. 503. How is it shown that St. Peter or his successor has always been the head of the Church?
A. It is shown that St. Peter or his successor has always been the head of the Church:
(1) From the words of Holy Scripture, which tell how Christ appointed Peter Chief of the Apostles and head of the Church.
(2) From the history of the Church, which shows that Peter and his successors have always acted and have always been recognized as the head of the Church.
Q. 504. How do we know that the rights and privileges bestowed on St. Peter were given also to his successors -- the Popes?
A. We know that the rights and privileges bestowed on St. Peter were given also to his successors, the Popes, because the promises made to St. Peter by Our Lord were to be fulfilled in the Church till the end of time, and as Peter was not to live till the end of time, they are fulfilled in his successors.

Q. 505. Did St. Peter establish any Church before he came to Rome?
A. Before he came to Rome, St. Peter established a Church at Antioch and ruled over it for several years.

Q. 506. Who are the successors of the other Apostles?
A. The successors of the other Apostles are the Bishops of the Holy Catholic Church.

Q. 507. How do we know that the bishops of the Church are the successors of the Apostles?
A. We know that the bishops of the Church are the successors of the Apostles because they continue the work of the Apostles and give proof of the same authority. They have always exercised the rights and powers that belonged to the Apostles in making laws for the Church, in consecrating bishops and ordaining priests.

Q. 508. Why did Christ found the Church?
A. Christ founded the Church to teach, govern, sanctify, and save all men.

Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
(1) Has been validly baptized;
(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

Q. 513. Why must the true Church be visible?
A. The true Church must be visible because its founder, Jesus Christ, commanded us under pain of condemnation to hear the Church; and He could not in justice command us to hear a Church that could not be seen and known.

Q. 514. What excuses do some give for not becoming members of the true Church?
A. The excuses some give for not becoming members of the true church are:
(1) They do not wish to leave the religion in which they were born.
(2) There are too many poor and ignorant people in the Catholic Church.
(3) One religion is as good as another if we try to serve God in it, and be upright and honest in our lives.

Q. 515. How do you answer such excuses?
A. (1) To say that we should remain in a false religion because we were born in it is as untrue as to say we should not heal our bodily diseases because we were born with them.
(2) To say there are too many poor and ignorant in the Catholic Church is to declare that it is Christ's Church; for He always taught the poor and ignorant and instructed His Church to continue the work.
(3) To say that one religion is as good as another is to assert that Christ labored uselessly and taught falsely; for He came to abolish the old religion and found the new in which alone we can be saved as He Himself declared.

Q. 516. Why can there be only one true religion?
A. There can be only one true religion, because a thing cannot be false and true at the same time, and, therefore, all religions that contradict the teaching of the true Church must teach falsehood. If all religions in which men seek to serve God are equally good and true, why did Christ disturb the Jewish religion and the Apostles condemn heretics?

6 posted on 11/10/2003 8:54:24 AM PST by harbingr (One, True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church)
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To: harbingr
3) To say that one religion is as good as another is to assert that Christ labored uselessly and taught falsely; for He came to abolish the old religion and found the new in which alone we can be saved as He Himself declared. Q. 516. Why can there be only one true religion? A. There can be only one true religion, because a thing cannot be false and true at the same time, and, therefore, all religions that contradict the teaching of the true Church must teach falsehood. If all religions in which men seek to serve God are equally good and true, why did Christ disturb the Jewish religion and the Apostles condemn heretics?

We need a good number of our clergy to review their catechism and perhaps all this pussyfooting and kowtowing to other false religions would cease.

Instead of putting the Roman Catholic Church in America in order, bishops find new humanistic persuits to follow and rail against.

In Florida the Bishop of Venice has filled the parish bulletins with cards and letters to sign and send to companies who buy tomatoes from growers who use migrant labor.

He asks that they boycott every division of Yum! Foods, who is the parent company of Taco Bell.

7 posted on 11/10/2003 9:13:00 AM PST by JesseHousman (Execute Mumia Abu-Jamal)
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To: JesseHousman
Gee, if they ban Bubble Yum, whatever will the bishop be able to blow?

8 posted on 11/10/2003 9:31:18 AM PST by dangus
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To: Rutles4Ever
woops -- did that slip?

You just damned 800,000,000 Hindus, not to mention Buddhists.

9 posted on 11/10/2003 9:31:46 AM PST by Modernman ("The law must be stable, but it must not stand still.")
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To: JesseHousman
If the Catholic Church is finally recognizing the danger of Islam, can the Bush administration be more than a few decades behind?
10 posted on 11/10/2003 9:36:50 AM PST by per loin
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To: Modernman
Not really. Catholics don't consider non-Christians damned. That's like saying you're going to hell if you watch an evil movie.
11 posted on 11/10/2003 9:39:01 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: per loin
I think they've recognized it all along, but don't want to needlessly endanger the lives of Christians in the crossfire. The last thing the Church needs to do is hand these guys a reason for a worldwide jihad on a silver platter.
12 posted on 11/10/2003 9:41:37 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: JesseHousman
I love religious posts. Gives me the capability to figure out who the real fanatics are here on this forum.



13 posted on 11/10/2003 9:54:01 AM PST by sinclair (When government needs money they find it in YOUR pockets.)
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To: Rutles4Ever
By definition, since Islam Judaism rejects Christ as the Son of Man, it must be of Satanic origin...

You sure you wanna make the argument that way?

14 posted on 11/10/2003 9:57:49 AM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: sinclair
Well, anyone that uses Sinclair Oil's dinosaur as their handle may not be a fanatic, but probably isn't wrapped too tightly.

Loosen that collar, Dino!

15 posted on 11/10/2003 10:23:32 AM PST by JesseHousman (Execute Mumia Abu-Jamal)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Yes. Judaism and Christiantity have the same root. Neither was created by a mortal. Islam is man-made. Mohammed lays no claim to Divinity, whereas Christ acknowledged the God of Abraham as His own Father, validating the Divine origin of the Judeo religion. Therefore, Mohammed's mortal proclamations could not have possibly come from God, since his personal "revalations" disavowed the Divinity of Christ.

If you want to be theoretical, Satan would not want anyone to accept Christ as the son of God, but the Jews are and always will be the Chosen Ones... that did not change.
16 posted on 11/10/2003 10:25:43 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
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To: Modernman
No, they damned themselves? But then:

. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church? A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
(1) Has been validly baptized;
(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

17 posted on 11/10/2003 10:28:51 AM PST by It's me
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To: JesseHousman
For those depressed by the supposed onslaught of "the fastest-growing religion in the world," I would like to point out that there is a quiet "counter-movement" of muslims turning to Christianity. It doesn't get much press, because unlike "Christians" becoming muslims, when Muslims become Christians, there are severe state-sanctioned persecutions involved, and in the US, getting your name in the paper cuses some serious headaches..

In the US, it's very interesting to note that when Iranians arrive in the US, one of the first things that happens is that they shed their Islam faster than you can say "Ayatollah Khoumeni." Many simply become completely secular and agnostic, others have some attatchment to the ancient Zoroastrianism of pre-Islamic Iran. Many become Christians. There are more than 60 Iranian churches in California alone, almost all of generally Evangelical theology.

And it isn't just the Shi'ites. Yesterday, we had a former imam from North Africa at our house for a cous-cous dinner. He speaks so movingly of how Jesus liberated him. He's working on his english while preparing for Christian seminary studies.

Note that the curent wave of anti-Christian persecution in Egypt is about Muslims who turned to Jesus. about 20 were recently jailed. The government is on the hunt for another 100.

18 posted on 11/10/2003 10:37:08 AM PST by cookcounty
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To: Rutles4Ever
I agree. I'm suggesting we need to be a careful with rhetoric ...

Islam is man-made.

That's the real point ...

Satan would not want anyone to accept Christ as the son of God

As is that.

19 posted on 11/10/2003 12:27:54 PM PST by ArrogantBustard
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To: ArrogantBustard
agreed.
20 posted on 11/10/2003 12:34:58 PM PST by Rutles4Ever
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