Projectile that penetrated M1A1 Abrams Tank still a mystery

Strategypage.com ^ | Oct 31,2003

[spetznaz]

October 31, 2003: The U.S. Army is not saying much about the "mystery projectile" that went through the side skirts and side armor of an M-1A1 tank last August 28th. Whatever it was just barely missed the tanks gunner (it went through the back of his seat and grazed part of his flak jacket) and put a pencil size hole nearly 50mm deep into the four inch thick armor on the other side of the tank. The damage may have been done by a projectile, not a shaped charge (which uses a jet of super-hot plasma to burn a hole in armor and put a quantity of plasma and molten metal inside the tank.) No known RPG would do that kind of damage. But some Western anti-tank rockets generate a different kind of plasma jet that might create the kind of damage done. A U.S. 25mm armor piercing shell (fired from the gun mounted on the M-2 Bradley armored vehicle) uses a small penetrator, but that penetrator is of depleted uranium, which burns like a flare once it is inside its target. One major unknown is the large number of portable anti-tank weapons (especially Russian and Chinese models) that have not been tested against the M-1 tank. It's not unusual for new weapons to have unpredictable effects once they are first used in combat. Until the army releases more information, if they have any, the mystery lingers.

[michaelt]

I believe the article that was the reason for yesterday's thread indicated that the fire suppression system was set off by this.

[RussianConservative]

This look like more hot plasma...but way of multiple holes...projectile would stay in one piece or fall apart and loose density to penetrate.

[RussianConservative]

By size of whole it not 120mm size, closer to 20mm size and it is plasma for multiple holes.

[Atlas Sneezed]

Bang

[Blueflag]

Based on reading the thread and your answer AND the "scratching the back" comment in another post, I'll go with a blue on blue from long range.

"Gunner, SABOT, ATGM . . .Identified. . .FIRE . . . On the Way . . . BOOM . . . Target! cease fire ceasefire! oh SH....."

[eyespysomething]

Um, he's not disrupting...

[Shryke]

Has a friendly round been ruled out? Specifically, a piece of one? Still traveling hypersonic after hitting something and fragmenting?

[Blueflag]

Sabot projectile is not 120MM. The sabot itself is 120 MM, but not the DU rod/fin projectile inside the sabot.

"armored Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) or "SABOT,"

http://members.aol.com/panzersgt/theory/Ammo.html

[FReepaholic]

>>...The only countermeasure would be to use energy against energy...<<

I thought the M1 was equipped with reactive armour. Haven't seen evidence of that in any of the pictures from GWII.

[Little Ray]

Rail gun?

[Lazamataz]

Chobham plate is 25 years old. Surprised it's taken this long to start defeating it.

That's part of the reason the Pentagon Brains in Jars trust have started to de-emphasize armor for mobility and first-strike over-horizen capability.

[MattAMiller]

The best guess is probably some sort of friendly fire incident. Although I guess it could have been China or Russia testing using the opportunity to sneak a test of a new weapon system.

[FreeInWV]

I wonder if it might have been a battlefield weapon test of someone totally unrelated. This theater would be the perfect place to test a man portable tank killer weapon. Others could be blamed for the act, and an army/contractor could battlefield test a weapon against an actual M1, which is pretty hard to get ahold of. It might have been the Russians, Chinese or French.

It had to be man portable. You will notice that there was no other armor in the area, or we would have found & destroyed it. Also nobody was caught, so someone "good" must have done it. Not a jihadi.

Maybe. MAybe not. I dunno.

[Robert A Cook PE]

Nah.

The "plasma-look" effect comes from the sabot (the original penetrator of xyz metal of some small 0.xxx" dia. moving at 1234.567 fps) breaking up after its penetrated the small gap below the turret.

Think about it: There's only structural steel-type "armor" in that area; The outer skirt, the tread "gap" no armor at all), the inner liner behind the treads, and then the interior. You can't put the 12-16" chobham armor around everything, 100% of the interior.

One of ours?

Maybe.

Find the metal fragments and "flashed" metal remnents nd find out if its one of our sabots.

The spalling effect as it comes out from the near side plating breaks up the penetrator, and the lower strength inside material spreads out the pattern slightly.

It's a lucky shot to get through, but it wasn't even a tank kill!

(Nor a personnel kill - fortunately. But even if it were, the Army would only have to replace the gunner to continue fighting in full-scale combat.)

[theFIRMbss]

>Projectile that penetrated M1A1 Abrams Tank still a mystery

"Ah, ah -- I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

[battousai]

"Sabot projectile is not 120MM. The sabot itself is 120 MM, but not the DU rod/fin projectile inside the sabot.

"armored Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) or "SABOT,"

http://members.aol.com/panzersgt/theory/Ammo.html
"

Also I believe the SABOT loses a lot of its KE after the initial penetration, thus causing it to bounce around inside the armoured compartment and set off stored ammunition.

This 'round' pretty much went through in a straight line without any deflection whatsoever.

[PsyOp]

Hate to say it, but I hope this was friendly fire of some kind and not some new weapon in the bad guys arsenal.

[1stFreedom]

Depleted uranium armor is better than reactive armor. It has better stopping power against sabot's and artillary.

[1stFreedom]

>>mine that big would have so much armor it would be incapable of moving.

Once again, it's about energy. The mine uses energy (explosion) to destroy tanks.

A mounted hypervelocity anti-tank round/missile could be mounted on any medium to large size vehicle.) Heck, the LOSAT missle system is mounted on an Humvee -- an the LOSAT travels at around mach 5. (3500mph??). (LOSAT uses a penetrator rod similiar to a sabot).

The real problem is that the Abrams had negated the ability to destroy tanks with cheap weapons. Kenetic energy weapons will neutralize this ability.

Next gen of RPG's will be kinetic energy. Imagine a RPG which explodes 20 feet in front of the tank, shooting a DU sabot at the tank at ultra high speed. All for $500. A sixty million dollar tank is toast.

[1stFreedom]

>>mine that big would have so much armor it would be incapable of moving.

Once again, it's about energy. The mine uses energy (explosion) to destroy tanks.

A mounted hypervelocity anti-tank round/missile could be mounted on any medium to large size vehicle.) Heck, the LOSAT missle system is mounted on an Humvee -- an the LOSAT travels at around mach 5. (3500mph??). (LOSAT uses a penetrator rod similiar to a sabot).

The real problem is that the Abrams had negated the ability to destroy tanks with cheap weapons. Kenetic energy weapons will neutralize this ability.

Next gen of RPG's will be kinetic energy. Imagine a RPG which explodes 20 feet in front of the tank, shooting a DU sabot at the tank at ultra high speed. All for $500. A sixty million dollar tank is toast.