Posted on 09/03/2023 10:10:00 AM PDT by daniel1212
Certainly that logical fallacy, a superficial ignorant parroted polemic (such as invokes everything from the Flood to AIDS as a moral argument against God), can be answered. There simply is no contradiction btwn God being omnipotent (and omniscient) and all good (from whom all good has come, as the creator of an exceedingly vast, systematicity ordered universe, exquisitely fine-tuned for our physical life), and the allowance of evil, For unless you want a world in which mankind is like a cloud or a robot, then allowing evil is a necessary good if: Man is to be a being with the ability to make moral choices; And if such choices are to have effects/consequences, for both good and evil, And which consequences can affect others as well as self, directly or indirectly. But which God can make to ultimately work out for what is Good, in the light of all that can be known. Which includes just punishment for eternal beings which manifest they wanted the opposite of God, (John 3:19–21) though only being punished according to what they could and did choose to do, (Deuteronomy 24:16; Luke 10:1- 15; Revelation 20:12; cf. 2 Corinthians 8:12) while making all to work out to the benefit of those who honestly choose Him over sin, seeking and finding the mercy of God in the Lord Christ. (Roman 8:28) Consider some alternatives. God could have, 1. made us (and angels) with no moral standard or sense or deprived us from the moral ability to respond to or choose good [morally insensible, even as with clouds]. 2. granted us free moral agency, but never have given us anything to choose between [negation of moral choices, and no devil or God]. 3. left man only with recourse to finite competing sources as his ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security, and supreme judge of what is good [atheism and atheistic governments]. 4. called man to make the Creator their ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security as being what is right and what is best for man, versus finite created beings or things being one's "god," and provided moral revelation and influences. Yet always have moved us to do good, and never have allowed us to choose evil (even if as by making believing in God and choosing good so utterly compelling — like God appearing daily and always doing miracles on demand, and preventing any seeming evidence to the contrary - so that no man could attempt to make excuses for not believing in Him [effective negation of any freedom to choose]). 5. allowed created beings a negative alternative to faithfulness to the creator, and the ability to choose evil, but immediately reversed any effects and not penalized such [negation of consequences to choices]. 6. allowed us to do bad, but restricted us to a place where it would harm no one but ourselves [isolated consequences to choices]. 7. allowed us to choose between good and evil, and to affect others by it, but not ultimately reward or punish us accordingly [negation of judicial and eternal consequences, positive or negative]. 8. given us the ability to choose, and alternatives to chose between, and to face and overcome evil or be overcome by it, with the ability to effect others and things by our choices, and to exercise some reward or punishment in this life for morality, and ultimately reward or punishment all accordingly [pure justice]. 9. restrained evil to some degree, while making the evil that man does to work out for what is Good, with justice yet with mercy, and grace, towards those who want good, and who thus the One who is supremely Good. 10. in accordance with 8, the Creator could have chose to manifest Himself in the flesh, and by Him to provide man a means of escaping the ultimate retribution of Divine justice, and instead receive unmerited eternal favor, at God's own expense and credit, appropriated by a repentant obedient faith, in addition to the loss or gaining of certain rewards based on one's quality of work as a child of God. And eternally punish, to varying degrees relative to iniquity and accountability, those whose response to God's revelation manifested they want evil, [justice maintained while mercy and grace given]. But man, as an exceedingly finite being who is but a speck in this universe, and in the sea of humanity, and whose existence on earth occupies an infinitesimal amount of time, and who is very ignorant of what all the effects of his choices have been and will be, in time and eternity, and quite impotent to make them all work out as he/she wants, not only in one’s own life but in others, and for this life, as well as eternity, is in no position to sit in judgment upon an omniscient and omnipotent being and giver of life, who alone knows what all the effects will be of even our most seemingly insignificant actions or inactions, not only in this life but for eternity. And can make all work out for what is Good, for what is just, as well as showing mercy and grace. And which the God of the Bible has often manifestly done already, and promises to do for those who choose the ultimate Good, the living and true God, (Romans 8:28) by His grace, thanks be to God. This the choices of an omniscient omnipotent Being cannot be judged as being evil or good by extremely finite and relatively ignorant man. Not that - in my ignorance myself - I have/do not too often protested His dealing with me as I subjectively imagined Him, though objectively blessed, and I am being blessed right now listening to,
There are very few who know the bible better then Satan.. And you can bet your last dollar that Satan is NOT a atheist.!
And yet you lived.
See what I did here?
I’ll be singing DAISY in a few more minutes.
It was THIS thread!
Weeping may endure for a night,
but joy cometh in the morning.
I said it poorly. I was referring to original sin. The fall. Adam’s sin. It is that sin that brought suffering into the world.
People do not get cancer because of their personal sin.
Sorry for the confusion. I should have been clearer. I am not a proponent of a prosperity gospel. I hope this helps.
I am; but with a side note that the 'prosperity' may not show up in this lifetime on earth.
We’re on the same wavelength, you and I.
I like your way of connecting things.
Yes, there is much more.
I don’t know if you were following the point of my post.
It was simply that it’s impossible to change the topic from being about God to being about love, since God is love and every time we speak of God we’re necessarily speaking about love. That’s all.
Believing in God is matter of faith. If we had video evidence of God we wouldn’t need faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
But the end result of trusting in the Creator is you live eternally in greater bliss than you ever experienced or imagined in this world, and any suffering is gone from your memory.
I’m not trying to argue in a personal way here, just making a logical point and hoping you will see the objective truth.
So, there must be some purpose to the injustices we see day and day out. My own belief is that we are to use this very brief time on earth to learn to love our God, and our neighbor. And I trust God to determine my fate once I am in His arms. I believe He will be fair and just, and I pray that He will be merciful.
Which once again sadly evidences your chosen intractable poverty of perception.
"suffering sinners and paying the price in God’s eyes?" No, as what you seemed to push away is seeking to understand what this Biblically means, and is kind of like liberals who rail against arresting law-breakers, esp due to border control, since is separates children from parents.
Meaning that when you do anything- even wasting time - affects others to varying degrees, which in turn affect others (butterfly effect). As far as crime, then even apart from LE and judicial action, and even if not caught, there are natural consequential effects. Of course, we also benefit by the right actions of others.
But besides nature, if you break the law and held accountable, then there are also penal consequential effects. The law requires a penalty (without which most would more act lawlessly) and which also causes others to suffer consequentially.
As far as innocent babies, yes, as being in the pool into which the rock of sin was thrown, creating waves, they are also effected along with others not directly connected with the thrower. I
Your objection here will likely be that the Judge should not penalize law-breakers in a way that affect others (no waves), and thus allow the wrong choices of ancestors to cause others to suffer. But that require humanity to be as islands to themselves, and thus neither penalties nor rewards should affect others.
But to be sure, the God of the Bible clearly does not hold the children responsible for the wrong actions of ancestors, (Deuteronomy 24:16; 2Ki 14:5,6; 2Ch 25:4; Jer 31:29,30; Eze 18:20) though we realize effects of their actions - right or wrong - to varying degrees, which in turn affect others.
Very simple, Free Will.
I don't presume to know God's intents; but, with my meager human powers of reason, I see the unfairness and tragedy of human existence as a test of my faith in God.
‘God” is neither allowing or disallowing. WE the people are Allowing and Disallowing. God is allowing us to make the choice.
“As far as innocent babies, yes, as being in the pool into which the rock of sin was thrown, creating waves, they are also effected along with others not directly connected with the thrower. I”
Oh please.
I think it's because shortly after he was confirmed in his faith, he was sorely tested. My wife loved him. Her faith was more pure than mine.
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