Posted on 09/03/2023 10:10:00 AM PDT by daniel1212
Certainly that logical fallacy, a superficial ignorant parroted polemic (such as invokes everything from the Flood to AIDS as a moral argument against God), can be answered. There simply is no contradiction btwn God being omnipotent (and omniscient) and all good (from whom all good has come, as the creator of an exceedingly vast, systematicity ordered universe, exquisitely fine-tuned for our physical life), and the allowance of evil, For unless you want a world in which mankind is like a cloud or a robot, then allowing evil is a necessary good if: Man is to be a being with the ability to make moral choices; And if such choices are to have effects/consequences, for both good and evil, And which consequences can affect others as well as self, directly or indirectly. But which God can make to ultimately work out for what is Good, in the light of all that can be known. Which includes just punishment for eternal beings which manifest they wanted the opposite of God, (John 3:19–21) though only being punished according to what they could and did choose to do, (Deuteronomy 24:16; Luke 10:1- 15; Revelation 20:12; cf. 2 Corinthians 8:12) while making all to work out to the benefit of those who honestly choose Him over sin, seeking and finding the mercy of God in the Lord Christ. (Roman 8:28) Consider some alternatives. God could have, 1. made us (and angels) with no moral standard or sense or deprived us from the moral ability to respond to or choose good [morally insensible, even as with clouds]. 2. granted us free moral agency, but never have given us anything to choose between [negation of moral choices, and no devil or God]. 3. left man only with recourse to finite competing sources as his ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security, and supreme judge of what is good [atheism and atheistic governments]. 4. called man to make the Creator their ultimate object of spiritual affection and allegiance and source of security as being what is right and what is best for man, versus finite created beings or things being one's "god," and provided moral revelation and influences. Yet always have moved us to do good, and never have allowed us to choose evil (even if as by making believing in God and choosing good so utterly compelling — like God appearing daily and always doing miracles on demand, and preventing any seeming evidence to the contrary - so that no man could attempt to make excuses for not believing in Him [effective negation of any freedom to choose]). 5. allowed created beings a negative alternative to faithfulness to the creator, and the ability to choose evil, but immediately reversed any effects and not penalized such [negation of consequences to choices]. 6. allowed us to do bad, but restricted us to a place where it would harm no one but ourselves [isolated consequences to choices]. 7. allowed us to choose between good and evil, and to affect others by it, but not ultimately reward or punish us accordingly [negation of judicial and eternal consequences, positive or negative]. 8. given us the ability to choose, and alternatives to chose between, and to face and overcome evil or be overcome by it, with the ability to effect others and things by our choices, and to exercise some reward or punishment in this life for morality, and ultimately reward or punishment all accordingly [pure justice]. 9. restrained evil to some degree, while making the evil that man does to work out for what is Good, with justice yet with mercy, and grace, towards those who want good, and who thus the One who is supremely Good. 10. in accordance with 8, the Creator could have chose to manifest Himself in the flesh, and by Him to provide man a means of escaping the ultimate retribution of Divine justice, and instead receive unmerited eternal favor, at God's own expense and credit, appropriated by a repentant obedient faith, in addition to the loss or gaining of certain rewards based on one's quality of work as a child of God. And eternally punish, to varying degrees relative to iniquity and accountability, those whose response to God's revelation manifested they want evil, [justice maintained while mercy and grace given]. But man, as an exceedingly finite being who is but a speck in this universe, and in the sea of humanity, and whose existence on earth occupies an infinitesimal amount of time, and who is very ignorant of what all the effects of his choices have been and will be, in time and eternity, and quite impotent to make them all work out as he/she wants, not only in one’s own life but in others, and for this life, as well as eternity, is in no position to sit in judgment upon an omniscient and omnipotent being and giver of life, who alone knows what all the effects will be of even our most seemingly insignificant actions or inactions, not only in this life but for eternity. And can make all work out for what is Good, for what is just, as well as showing mercy and grace. And which the God of the Bible has often manifestly done already, and promises to do for those who choose the ultimate Good, the living and true God, (Romans 8:28) by His grace, thanks be to God. This the choices of an omniscient omnipotent Being cannot be judged as being evil or good by extremely finite and relatively ignorant man. Not that - in my ignorance myself - I have/do not too often protested His dealing with me as I subjectively imagined Him, though objectively blessed, and I am being blessed right now listening to,
I hold your God to the same standard I do of ANYTHING! Actions speak louder than words!! And again, I've seen ZERO so there is ZERO Belief!!
so if
God is all powerful and all good,how does he allow someone to die of a painful disease?
Not many helpful answers for that one. Usually, “
God allows that so that we can see the good that comes out of tragedy’”....kind of a circular argument avoiding the basic question. No free will involved in tragic illness.
Someone needs to look up the meaning of “free will.”
OR THE ANSWER IF “ WE CAN’T UNDERSTAND
GOD’S WAYS..WE’LL FIND OUT LATER, MAYBE.”
When we speak of God we speak of love, because God is love.
You cannot look at one attribute in isolation.
God must be just. His mercy/love is at his great pleasure.
“Let’s assume that all men are guilty of sin in the sight of God. From the mass of humanity, God sovereignly decides to give mercy to some of them. What do the rest get? They get justice. The saved get mercy and the unsaved get justice. Nobody gets injustice” - R. C. Sproul
Not saying you are wrong, just pointing out there is more.
Most assuredly. That answer is so plain and obvious It wonders me that people still make that argument against God without first explaining away Free Will.
Back for a bit.
If you cannot see that, as evidenced by your response to post 253, your atheistic blindness prevents you from seeing both the consequences (direct and indirect) of disobeying God (thus suffering) as well as His restraint (thus the whole world is not a N.Korea, as well as what your faith is up against in the light of the universe, then nothing can presently change that.
Be back later.
I don’t understand, but I’m interested.
What do you mean by “not attempting to be a “model”, which the modern Western mind took as the only possible activity of the human mind”?
God gave Adam Free Will.
I put your God on the stand and ask him what he has done to stop ANYTHING!??
I hold your God to the same standard I do of ANYTHING! Actions speak louder than words!! And again, I’ve seen ZERO so there is ZERO Belief!!
You look through all of history and see no times when evil was restrained. If it wasn’t restrained for individuals and societies, can you imagine the state we would be in?
The issue for you and throughout history is man good or evil? If man is good we can create heaven on earth, if not it is hell on earth.
How are you defining good and evil? Is it a relative thing, defined by man, changing day by day. We live in a day in which good is evil and evil is good. What does that tell you?
The amazing thing is that God has not turned us completely over to our hearts desires. The amazing thing is that he does restrain some evil.
The very discussion of evil and good requires that there be a standard to evaluate. What should that standard be?
The gov’t thinks it is evil that you should have a house and car all to yourself. Are they right?
Or is there a perfect unchanging standard we should understand and strive for?
judging by your response(s), its even difficult for you to come up with a sensible excuse.
man’s heart is what controls society.
There is no good and evil. There is only man’s heart which changes by the hour.
Man’s heart is saying it is evil for you have have a house and car to yourself. You agree with mans heart?
You think he is sitting back waiting for man to fix it? Really? We have done a bang up job.
What he is doing is revealing mans heart and it is not a good picture is it. You have indicated man’s heart isn’t
very good and needs help.
You say society is mans heart. Then you say it needs fixing. By what standard to you say it needs fixing?
You say we don’t need God and then blame him for not fixing things. Think about it.
lol... lets break it down so you have no where to go with it like that post shows how you argue...
Is it right or wrong? and dont hand me the crap of “Oh well it depends on who you asl... good or evil...
“You say we don’t need God and then blame him for not fixing things. Think about it.”
If youre going to question me, please have the honor in not twisting or changing my words.
. And if thats the case, what the hell is he even there for??
What is the purpose of man?
What is the chief aim of man? God has an answer for that, but man doesn’t like the answer.
If I misunderstood, then restate your points.
God made Animals—they run on instinct—they do not have Free Will. Humans do. If we lose that we are no better than the animals. We have choices to make.
Sometimes we screw it up. But not always. The very essence of free will is that we do often make the correct choice.
This is true both in personal life and in politics.
For example, Jan 19 2020 government allowed a mixture of free choice and not-so-free mandates in use of fossil fuel.
Jan 21 the US shifted and greatly increased the mandates and reduced the freedom to choose. The results are obvious.
Jan 21 Biden signaled to Putin and Bidenomics would finance Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. At the same time Biden created inflation. Removed the ability of the working poor to buy gasoline to get to work. Bidenomics created inflation that hurt the poor much harder than the rich.... and with no freedom to choose.... with Biden bastardizing his concept of a God who mandates.
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