US Army to Search for New 7.62mm Rifle

Military.com ^ | 27 Apr, 2017 | Matthew Cox

[Travis McGee]

I think a 6.5mm round like the Creedmore can fit into an M-4 lower and has the ballistics to get out to 900meters, I'm thinking, and still weigh under 10 pounds with something like a 1-6X Elcan scope on top.

I know, it's another caliber, and the US Army don't do knew calibers, ever since they insisted on making the M-1 Garand a 30-06 to use up warehouses full of that caliber. (The Garand was designed to shoot a 6.5 and hold ten rounds, I believe.)

"NOT A 6.5 Creedmore above, and that is a 1X4 Elcan."

[archy]

The Garand was designed to shoot a 6.5 and hold ten rounds, I believe.)

Pretty close. The early Pedersen and Garand prototype semiautos were both 10-round rifles in the .276 Pedersen caliber, Pedersen maybe being a somewhat more knowledgeable ballistician than John C. Garand, a true mechanical engineering genius with better ideas regarding manufacturing techniques, important as wartime mobilization took place. Nowadays, we'd likely call the .276 Pedersen a 6.8mm, and the Remington 6.8mm SPC cartridge is the Pedersen round's great grandchild.

That odd pregnant-appearing swell of the Garand's stock at the area of the magazine housing that gives the Garand it's unique feel when grasped at the point of balance is the result of the enlargement of the clip and feed mechanism from a very trim 10-round .276 to a bulkier eight-round .30-06. The rest is history.

I know, it's another caliber, and the US Army don't do knew calibers

Well, SOCOM came up with the 6,8SPC, and that had a lot of promise when the XM-8 and SCAR were candidates for general adoption to replace the M16/M4. The 6.8 had problems when used in the M249 SAW, though, and is probably doomed to extinction. The .30 Blackout has been happily adopted by SF in its place instead, very capable of both close-in work with short barrels and also usable at longer distances with heavy .308 bullets. I'm reliably told that not only have there been some 4K enemy casualties from the .30BO, but that there's a nice pool and special trinket for the shooter who pulls the trigger on number 5K. I've not heard if they've worked up a M249 barrel in .30BO yet, but I sure wouldn't be surprised, and links wouldn't be a problem.

[archy]

I’d say go back to the M-40 and add a few modern touches. It worked well enough for me.

L

For a serious, dedicated rifleman, I pretty much agree that an M40/M700/M84 has a lot going for it; for the 20-year-old six or eight months out of OSUT at Ft Benning or Polk, not so much. As for those *modern touches* note the AW type chassis stock on the new Army M700s, and that they're long action rifles [always have been, the Army specified the LA M700 action for their M24 SWS long ago] and that they're chambered in .300 Winchester Magnum.... just 37 years after the SEALs were working with M84s in .300 Win Mag we built for them at Crane.

When the 82nd Airborne was running snipers in Bosnia and I got to run along with them, they liked to work three-man teams in towers, one with an M24 boltgun in 7.62, another with a semiauto M25 [upgraded M14 or M21] and the third guy on the ground with a scoped M16A2 or an M4 with M203 and night vision pulling security on the ground.

It worked for them, in that AO, at that time, in those conditions. Textbook perfect? Nope? Workable then and there? Yep.

[archy]

Are the mausers in 8mm? That would be oksay too.

CC

They are. The standard German 7,92x57mm round was the choice of the Nationalists, who also used Czech Vz26 and Vz30 LMGs, Canadian Brens in 7,92 and German watercooled Maxim heavies. They also used the German M35 steel helmet, the C96 broomhandle Mauser pistol, and other novelties from the land of coocoo clocks. Their manufacturing machinery came from Germany and German Mauser technicians set it up in the three Nationalist arsenals, where two versions, generally known as the Chiang Kai Shekh rifle were built, very similar to the. German Kar98k, also provided to the Chinese until their own Mauser production got up to speed.

If you've ever seen the wartime photo of the proud little Chinese soldier guarding the flight line of the American Volunteer Group/ Flying Tigers shark-teeth painted P-40 fighters with his bolt-action rifle and unsheathed fixed bayonet, that's one of the Type 24 Chinese Mausers. I believe the photo made the cover of LIFE magazine in one of their issues that covered the Flying Tigers.

[Celtic Conservative]

Sounds like a nice addition to my slowly growing collection of WWII battle rifles.

CC

[archy]

If you've ever seen the wartime photo of the proud little Chinese soldier guarding the flight line of the American Volunteer Group/ Flying Tigers shark-teeth painted P-40 fighters with his bolt-action rifle and unsheathed fixed bayonet, that's one of the Type 24 Chinese Mausers. I believe the photo made the cover of LIFE magazine in one of their issues that covered the Flying Tigers.

Found it!

[Lurker]

“for the 20-year-old six or eight months out of OSUT at Ft Benning or Polk, not so much.”

I was 22 and not far out of AIT when I got mine.

It’s a poor workman who blames his tools. Just saying.

Best,

L

[BwanaNdege]

That’s why they call us “Grunts”!

IIRC...

PRC-25, incl spare battery, handset & whip antenna - 25 lb
Helmet - 3 lb
Flak Jacket - 10 lb?
Case of C-rats (12 meals - one week) - 25 lb
(4) canteens - 0ne gallon water - 8.35 lb + canteen weight
Packboard & canvas “bookbag” ??
K-Bar, shaving gear, spare socks, letter writing gear, needle nose pliers, assorted junk...

Plus my M-16 & ammo. Most ops I carried 75-90#. Up in the mountains we’d only carry one meal per day for a week long patrol, so we dropped to about 65 lbs.

Years later, after commissioning, I was a Forward Air Controller for a year. One training exercise in Korea with cold weather gear and the air comm gear, spare batteries, etc. the little guy on my team carried 105#, the other two carried 110# and I had 115# - in the mountains.

(but I was bit younger then...)

:-)

Of course, the guys fighting in the “sandbox” are probably carrying more.

[archy]

“for the 20-year-old six or eight months out of OSUT at Ft Benning or Polk, not so much.”

I was 22 and not far out of AIT when I got mine.

It’s a poor workman who blames his tools. Just saying.

So true. Nevertheless, Michelangelo did his best work with a fine sable brush, not an airless paint sprayer. Just sayin'!

There are good, qualified E2 and E3 snipers, usually with previous shooting experience, working effectively at 20 or 21-years of age. I too was sometimes working with a scoped boltgun at 21, picked because of my experience as a tank gunner familiar with a 10x telescopic sight and night vision equipment and having shot in the National Matches at Camp Perry and the LeClerc matches in Europe; my coming-out party announcement was made through the sights of a PVS-1 atop an M14 in early 1968. But I had been in almost two years by then, had made E-4 and still had two years to go. Back then almost everyone had gone through basic with the M14 and most of could shoot effectively out to at least 300 meters, usually 450. That is no longer the case and may not be necessary; my old logbook shows one of my long-range hits made at the scoped rifle bragging distance of eighteen feet. But you live longer if you work from longer out. And so do guys with a couple of years in, instead of a few months.