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1 posted on 09/11/2015 6:59:42 AM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan
Artillery fire actually killed more men than machine guns

True. But it was the combination of machine guns and barbed wire that drove armies into stationary positions where artillery could be most effective.

2 posted on 09/11/2015 7:04:30 AM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: C19fan

I once owned a BAR, loved it. However the stock was a bit flat for my size.

On the other hand a A Bolt in a Magnum Chambering is a dream rifle. Carried one from Texas to Alberta, CA. Nothing ever ran far that I put a chunk of lead/copper thru.

Unfortunately one day while boating...


3 posted on 09/11/2015 7:07:40 AM PDT by VRWCarea51 (The original 1998 version)
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To: C19fan
"For example, during just one day in 1916 at the Battle of the Somme the British lost 21,000 men"

I also remember the Aussies didn't do to well when they went over the top in the face of Turkish machine guns at Gallipoli. That debacle almost ruined Churchill's career.

4 posted on 09/11/2015 7:07:49 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: C19fan
The Heavy Counter Assault Rifle by Ohio Ordnance Works is a modernized version of the classic weapon.

Cool. Hope the Pentagon gives it a good look.

6 posted on 09/11/2015 7:11:28 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: C19fan
Clyde Barrow liked the BAR.
7 posted on 09/11/2015 7:14:54 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: C19fan

The BAR was outstanding because it was supremely reliable, accurate and steady as a rock. I remember being able to see the strikes of my rounds through my peep sight and controlling the hits. Nice slow, controllable 450 RPM rate of fire.


8 posted on 09/11/2015 7:15:21 AM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: C19fan

Full auto video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEo8yRiDU0w


12 posted on 09/11/2015 7:19:47 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: C19fan
John Browning’s Automatic Rifle Is a Killing Machine

One could say the best, BAR none...

13 posted on 09/11/2015 7:21:55 AM PDT by null and void (Actions have consequences. Especially stupid actions.)
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To: C19fan
John Browning’s Automatic Rifle Is a Killing Machine

And all this time, I thought it was for mixing pizza dough.

Who knew?

14 posted on 09/11/2015 7:24:02 AM PDT by OldSmaj (obama is a worthless mohametan. Impeach his ass now!)
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To: C19fan
Tangentially related, I highly recommend Dan Carlin's multipart podcast called "Blueprint for Armageddon" about WWI. It really brings home the horror of WWI and how 19th Century military thinking was erroneously applied with the unknown effects of 20th century technology.
19 posted on 09/11/2015 7:37:04 AM PDT by Flick Lives (One should not attend even the end of the world without a good breakfast. -- Heinlein)
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To: C19fan

Incompetent and arrogant military leadership is the *real* killing machine.

The problem began with Napoleon, who while not particularly brilliant as a military planner himself, had at least two senior generals who were military geniuses. How their strategy worked is best, and fairly simply illustrated by the Ulm-Austerlitz campaign.

To start with, Napoleon had two unusually large armies. He sent one of them to Italy, to protect his southern flank. So with just his single, grand army, he went into battle expecting to fight SEVEN Austrian and Russian armies.

He was helped immeasurably by a fluke. The European armies used the Gregorian calendar, but the Russians still used the Julian calendar, which was about two weeks behind the Gregorian in its dates. So they left Russia two weeks late.

To make matters worse, they had to pass through Prussia, and the Prussians were not happy at all to see four Russian armies pass through their country. So more severe delays.

In any event, on to strategy. Napoleon decided to confuse his enemy as to where he was going, and what he was going to attack. So he put his army in a north-south line almost the width of Europe. As the line marched East, units formed and reformed so the enemy could not tell who was where, while gradually reducing the length of the line while thickening it. Eventually it split sideways, so that there was a front line, and a rapidly moving rear echelon.

The concept (called the “Axe” technique) was that the front would engage the enemy on a wide front, and the rapidly moving second echelon would go up and down the line, looking for a weakness in the enemies defenses, then pour through, splitting the enemies forces.

It worked exceedingly well for the times.

In any event, the Austrians figured that the French would have to do a major river crossing, and that the best place to do that was at the German city of Ulm, which was inside an L shaped bend in the river. So they put the best of their three armies in the city.

With considerable razzle-dazzle, Napoleon’s army carried out a major river crossing with their engineers *North* of the city. Then very quickly surrounded the city with their fast moving second echelon.

Pinned in on two sides by the river, and encircled on the land, that entire army had to surrender or be slaughtered. And surrender they did.

This was the preface to the battle of Austerlitz, which is regarded as one of the most important battles of maneuver in history, and was extensively studied by all modern armies. The French won an incredible victory, defeating two Austrian armies and a Russian Army, with the other three Russian armies returning home in a hurry.

Now all of this explains World War I, and easily.

Every modern army of the time adopted these Napoleonic tactics as the only way to fight a war. And the zinger is, that *they do not work*, if both sides are using them.

If both sides are doing so, you end up with a horrific bloodbath and stalemate. And victory goes to whoever abandons the Napoleonic tactics first.

The utter carnage of World War I forced all the western European nations to make a huge review and revision of their tactics, but because of the Russian revolution, the Russians *never did*.

So up until the collapse of the Soviet Union, they were still embracing Napoleonic tactics. Modern technology was adapted to those tactics. Even having nuclear weapons didn’t change those tactics.

And NATO knew it. So planned its defenses using tactics formulated to *defeat* Napoleonic tactics.

But in the final analysis, it does not boil down to technology, but pragmatic leadership.


22 posted on 09/11/2015 7:51:40 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative." -Obama, 09-24-11)
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To: C19fan

And the legendary Browning M2 (Ma Deuce) .50 cal MG was and still is the deadliest MG around with probably more kills and damage inflicted than a lot of military arms. Browning did know what was needed in the field.


23 posted on 09/11/2015 7:53:45 AM PDT by redcatcherb412
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To: C19fan
The venerable BAR came from a time when guns were made of forged steel and had wood furniture. The M1918 was 15 lbs. and the M1918A2 was 20 lbs. The BAR was a real war machine and it could spit out .30-06 rounds at 550 rounds per minute. If it could be faulted, it needed 30-round magazines instead of 20-round, and it needed a quick change barrel. Otherwise, it was powerful and well balanced (without the bipod).

I remember shooting the BAR off our Fletcher-class DD in 1966. We'd run about 200 rounds through the old warhorse. The barrel was really cooking. when I handed it off to a new shooter. He made the mistake of grabbing it around the exposed barrel, and got an immediate blister 2/3 the width of his hand. The next time I saw him, his whole hand was swathed in bandages. That was a very painful lesson for him and all the shooters were very aware what NOT to touch!

25 posted on 09/11/2015 8:17:04 AM PDT by MasterGunner01 ( Barbara Daly Danko)
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To: C19fan

I have one of the 1918A3’s from Ohio Ordnance with the walnut stock. Beautiful weapon. Definitely turns some heads at the shooting range


26 posted on 09/11/2015 8:48:32 AM PDT by Iceman55
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To: C19fan
I read once that Charlton Heston owned 3 WW II era BARs (not a BAR depicted in the photo I know, but I like it).


28 posted on 09/11/2015 9:13:09 AM PDT by SkyPilot ("I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6)
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To: C19fan

You would think that after seeing men being killed the first time by the thousands as they ran directly into the machine gun fire that the generals would think to use different tactics.


30 posted on 09/11/2015 9:53:09 AM PDT by minnesota_bound
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To: C19fan

On a recent thread someone wrote that the BAR sucked, largely because it was heavy and the mags only held 20 rnds. It stuck out because most people only have positive things to say about it.


35 posted on 09/12/2015 5:28:31 AM PDT by Brooklyn Attitude (Things are only going to get worse.)
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