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To: DiogenesLamp
Take the Apple 2 for example. That is the product that launched the Apple empire. What was Jobs contribution to it? Without Wozniak to create such a wonderful design, where would Jobs be?

Without Steve Jobs, there NEVER would have been an Apple II. It's as simple as that, Diogenes. Steve Wozniak was happy to GIVE his computers away. He has stated that as a FACT. Steve Jobs pushed him to sell them. FACT.

How can you tell if he was the driving force behind any of this rather than the Chance Gardner that happen to be at the right place at the right time?

Because the people who were THERE, said it was him. . . he was the asshole who kept pushing them to do things they REALLY did not want to do!

I don't know. That is the picture that people present of him, but it occurs to me that he was also uniquely put into such a position where he could influence things. Who else gets launched to the CEO of a well to do corporation by what was ostensibly the work of his partner, and then has the means to sit around and think about how to make more money in the then very young computer industry? It seems like a bird's nest on the ground, where in every direction you turn there is money to be made. Who was *NOT* making money in the business at that time?

You are completely MISCONSTRUING things to say that the "well to do corporation" was the work of his partner. Steve Wozniak was completely incapable of building a "well to do corporation" or even building the Apple II. Have you seen his products? They were bare circuit boards!

Wozniak wanted to sell the Apple I for about what they cost to make. . . to please his friends at the Home Brew Computer Club he and Jobs belonged to . . . and that was all. Woz really had no ambition to do more. It was Steve Jobs' vision that resulted in forming a business to build and manufacture them and sell them to retailers for a profit. If it had been up to Woz, Apple would never have existed. Once the Apple I was sold out, and the concept proved, there was a clamor for more but with more power. The Apple II needed to be a more polished effort.

To take a new product to quantity production outside a garage or even a storefront operation is an entirely DIFFERENT SKILL SET than what Steve Wozniak possessed. . . nor should he have been expected to have possessed such skills. Yes, he was a skilled and gifted amateur computer and circuit board designer and could get a computer down to as few components as possible. . . but he had NO IDEA about case design, manufacturing, or esthetics, accounting, or sales. NONE AT ALL. That was all pure Steve Jobs. . . and for him it was learning on the job. When he realized how much he didn't know, he brought in Mike Markula, who mentored him and became a partner as well. . . again, vision.

You really don't know what you are talking about on this, none at all. I have been a CEO. . . and I know that a self-trained engineer is never going to do any of that. Someone had to coordinate all of that and Steve Jobs did that until even that got beyond his skills and he brought someone in. Steve Wozniak did not see the reason for color. . . or a keyboard. . . he was happy with a computer you could program with jumpers and dip switches. It was Steve Jobs who told him they needed a computer for the "everyman" not just for computer club members, who Woz saw as their only potential customers. Again, the vision thing. It was Steve who convinced an unknown guy name Bill Gates to write a simple Basic for the Apple II. It was STEVE who insisted the Apple II had to have color output. . . Woz didn't really see the need. . . but Steve Jobs was foreseeing playing games on the computer in color.

You are right. YOU DON'T KNOW.

Steve Jobs was a polymath perfectionist. . . who would NOT let go. It was his VISION that built Apple. . . and changed SIX distinct industries as defined by the people IN those industries who interacted with him. . . and often FOUGHT with him and were frequently pissed off at him. . . but they still say he changed their industries for the better. Many of them did not like him. . . but they respected him. He got things done, on his terms, not theirs. Perhaps that was his true genius. He got what he wanted. He got what he went after. He KNEW what the public needed before the public knew they even wanted it. . . and went after providing it for them with a will. Jobs would not accept excuses for why something was not finished to his expectations. You either had it done, or you told him why you were making it better than he expected. Steve Jobs and Apple's mantra was to under promise and over deliver. . . and Apple has, for the most part, delivered on that.

Your recollection about NeXT is both correct and incorrect. He created the single most advanced computer of the day. . . and the single most advanced operating system. We know its descendant today as OS X. He made himself a Billionaire with NeXT and his investment in PiXAR. NeXT was Steve's baptism of fire that made him into the hardened business man he was when he returned to Apple. . . and negotiated the Lawsuit settlement with Microsoft that everyone today thinks was Microsoft bailing Apple out to the tune of $150 million. It was nothing of the kind, but rather the first of Steve Jobs coups, in which Jobs cleared the decks for Apple's future financed by Microsoft's paying royalties for infringing Apple patents and copyrights to the tune of at least a couple of billion dollars for the next five years. The $150 million was only the down payment.

As for hype. Hype is as hype does. . . we got Obama who was a fraud and incompetent who is in the process of bankrupting us.

Apple got Steve Jobs, who was anything but incompetent, who took a company with $2 billion dollars in liquid assets, who then cut product lines to the bone, introduced the single most successful computer in history, the iMac, and who then in ten short years took that company with a net worth of less than $10 billion and grew it into the single most valuable company in the world valued at almost $650 Billion, with $150 BILLION in CASH in the bank. . . more cash than the United States Treasury has on hand! A company that following his map now has $185 Billion in valuation after returning almost $300 Billion to its stockholders, a valuation greater than the next 3/4s of the New York Stock Exchange companies combined, a valuation greater than ALL the businesses in Russia, a valuation greater than 110 of the world's COUNTRIES combined, and revenues that in just one quarter eclipse what the company made in its entire first twenty years! Those are accomplishments of Steve Jobs. . . without even talking about what he did at NeXT, Pixar, Disney, or for the Music Industry, etc. . .

When a man performs as advertised, it really is not hype. Obama does not. Steve Jobs walked the walk.

And you say you think "someone else could have done just as well?" No, you are wrong! People are NOT cookie cutter cogs to be placed in machines to fulfill roles. It takes people with vision and a WILL to follow their vision to accomplish great things. Sometimes it takes an asshole who is a monomaniac perfectionist who knows how to say NO to things that sound like good ideas. Apple could have hired another MBA who, looking at the bottom line like he was taught in business school, borrowed money and run Apple into the ground, making more beige boxes. . . or taken the advice of sever consultants the board had hired and started making PC Clones under the Apple brand. . . and run the business into the ground. . . or the advice of other consultants and continued the Mac Clone market and cut prices to the bone. . . and licensed even more Mac Clones . . . and run Apple into bankruptcy as the clone business already was doing. Yeah, Diogenes just any old business person could have run it. . . like the previous successful sugar water salesmen and other CEOs who had been successful selling OTHER products were NOT successful leading Apple were NOT. Steve Jobs was unique.

As I told you, I've been a CEO. I've managed businesses. I still get paid for my business acumen. I've founded a few. I've founded and run a charity. People are not the same, and there are people who come along once in a generation or a century. Jobs was one of those. . . and we were lucky to have had him.

Was Steve Jobs a perfect human being? Not by a long shot. Would you want to be on the elevator as an Apple employee with him? Nope, that was a dangerous thing. You might not have a job after you rode four floors with him . . unless you could show him how you were benefiting Apple that day. Would you want to share a beer with him? Hell, I don't know. . . but I'd love to bounce ideas off of him. . . because he gave credit where credit was due. . . and if you had a great idea, he'd back you until it showed no promise or it worked. It may never make it into a product, but it might. . . but YOU had better argue strongly for it, not meekly. If you had a product he wanted for Apple, he'd buy it from you. He would not steal it. . . contrary to what some on here would claim. That's the purview of Microsoft's business practices. But he had little patience for incompetence. That's my take. As I said, Steve Jobs was a compulsive perfectionist. . . and it would not go out without his OK.

Ask yourself, how many other men have FOUR (or is it five, now) movies made about their lives within five years after their deaths. . . I don't think even JFK has had that many movies made so soon. . . Not to mention two or three DURING his life. . . with actors falling over themselves to play him? THAT is an iconic person. . . not a hyped fake.

138 posted on 01/19/2015 10:57:05 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users contnue...)
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To: Swordmaker
Okay, you convinced me. His talent wasn't in technical capability, it was in motivation and a nose for what people wanted.

I think where I made my mistake in judging him is by thinking he was a technical genius of some sort. ( a Position which I have held since the late 1970s when I heard that the Apple II was developed by the both of them.)

You see, my heroes are engineers, not businessmen, and so I don't normally assign any high value to the contributions of people who are good at sales and marketing. Advancement of the Art is everything to me, while making money off it is just incidental to the part I've always regarded as important.

My thinking is that "of course advancement of the art is going to make money." Especially during that period in history when the whole world was trying to get their hands on anything micro-computer related.

But Steve Jobs could do it better and could better figure out what the public wanted. Still doesn't put him on my list of greats, but I think I can now grasp why others look at it that way.


143 posted on 01/20/2015 6:16:59 AM PST by DiogenesLamp
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To: Swordmaker

Everything you said was Dead On.

Engineers do not understand that marketing is a front end, comprehensive view of what a product will do for a customer, where it fits in their universe, how you can take what they currently have and extrapolate that into a new product you know will compel them to want it and buy it.

Jobs knew all that in his bones, and had no tolerance for people trying to take him off the path he saw.

Was he a prick? Yeah. Everyone knows the story about him and the security guard in Bandley 2.

But results is results...going from Dead In the Water in 1997 to the world’s richest company in 2010 is beyond unbelievable, it’s epic.

The ordinary suits keep thinking they can do that with corporate reorgs. But since they understand neither their product nor their buyers or the culture they live in, ain’t gonna happen.

Jobs got all that.


147 posted on 01/20/2015 9:10:25 AM PST by Regulator
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