Posted on 12/16/2009 10:47:30 AM PST by GregNH
When thinking about the mass extermination camps of a holocaust think.. The key to freedom is to be able to have the ability to defend yourself &, if you dont have the tools to do that, then youre...
(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...
Well I guess I’m doing even better being safe from crime. I have an arsenal... : )
Seriously, I like what this guy has to say concerning seeing the holocaust survivor and thinking that was not going to be him.
Google “Shoot Twice and Go Home” for the *real* answer.
Remember the saying, "All that is needed for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing"? They did nothing. There is great wisdom in their defense strategy, but what good is it if you aren't willing to use it for good? If America had just fought the Japanese and Briton fell to Germany, the Swiss would be surrounded and cut off and greatly outnumbered. My personal position is they didn't want a war, so they remained neutral to save their citizens for the inevitable occupation by the Nazi's. Remember the Swiss are blonde and blue eyed for the most part. They would have done well with the Nazi's.
As Bush so famously said, "You are either with us, or with the terrorists".
Hitler generally over ran his enemies because of the strength of his mechanized units, which would have been nearly useless in the mountains. Tanks perform best on open plains.
Good questions to find out would be, how many planes did the Swiss have in 1939?, How many tank killers? How many larger guns than a service rifle? Maybe 200 artillery Any fighters that weren't biplanes?
Tanks would do fine in mountain roads if you don't have tank killers. I don't hate the Swiss, I'm just being objective with the facts of the time. I'm not sure they have a couple of squadrons of fighters even today. If attacked they would be forced to call NATO for help. If Russia decided they needed some ski lifts and a couple of banks to hide money in, who would stop them? The Swiss? I don't think so.
It's sort of like Cuba. If we wanted to attack Cuba, would they last more than 30 minutes without help? We just don't want them bad enough, so we allow them to exist. Hitler had other fish to fry. To somehow believe they would be allowed to remain free while surrounded by Nazi's is just not believable.
I don’t wish to offend, but the fact that you would even seriously consider the use of V2 rockets as relevant to a tactical situation disqualifies you from this discussion.
•Switzerland's alpine railways were of central importance for transports between Germany and Italy . In case of an attack on Switzerland, the Swiss Army would have destroyed important bridges and tunnels, and would have paralyzed the connection for years. The Swiss compromise offer to Germany and Italy was, that Switzerland would allow transports between Germany and Italy in sealed box cars without checking the contents - in exchange for the supply of vital raw materials and goods. This obviously was more attractive to Germany than a destroyed railway line. On the other hand, exporting industry products (chemicals, pharmaceutics, machinery and electrical equipment) was far more vital for Switzerland as a small country than importing was for Germany and Italy - big nations having together 25 times the Swiss population and being able to use industrial resources all over occupied Europe.
•Some historians say, that financial services, especially buying gold from Germany in exchange for convertible currency (Germany's national currency was no longer accepted as a means of payment in the international markets) was also an important factor. The Independent Commission of Experts showed that the Chairman of the Swiss National Bank (SNB) did not use this argument during the Second World War. "It was only after the war ... that the SNB directors claimed that their gold transactions and positive relations with Germany had prevented Germany from seriously considering the option of military operations against Switzerland. ... One might just as well claim that with its «business as usual» approach, the SNB had effectively prevented Switzerland from using the convertibility of its currency as a trump card in the economic negotiations with Germany, thus neutralizing the dissuasive potential." (Independent Commission of Experts Switzerland - World War II, final report, p. 247f)
The defense of Switzerland was thus based only on three columns (army, Spiritual Defense and alpine transit), but all of them were quite weak. So it was ever more important to combine them in a most effective way. The international debate on Switzerland's role in World War II has split public opinion into two camps: Swiss traditionalists defend the glorious role of the Swiss Army while leftist critics point to anything that has been done wrong according to moral standards. A sober look at the real balance of power between Germany and Austria vs. tiny Switzerland and the fact that France and Great Britain were not able to prevent Germany from occupying France in 1940 shows that Switzerland's Army (even backed up by Spiritual Defense) had absolutely no chance to withstand an attack and defend its borders.
Therefore an attempt to rely on military deterrence alone would inevitably have ended in being defeated - and thus practically all Swiss citizens of Jewish origin as well as some 100,000 military and some 60,000 civilian refugees admitted by Switzerland would have faced deportation to the concentration and death camps of the Nazis.................end of copy and paste.
The Swiss were surrounded and had to import food and supplies from Nazi occupied countries. They needed the rails to stay open and the Nazi's needed them also. What would have happened if the allies would have bombed a few Nazi trains on Swiss bridges and tunnels? They allowed Nazi's to transport over their rails without inspection and were paid back by not being invaded. I'm sure if things had turned out better for Hitler, they would have finally moved to the top of his list. The Swiss military would just be a fly in the oinment fighting as a resistance force in the mountains while the main populace would have suffered in the cities.
Like I said, a gun in every home is a great idea, but some seem to think that is what saved the Swiss from the Nazi's. Not true.
Hitler could have over run them at any time.
Repectfully disagree.
Hitler might have conquered Switzerland had he tried to do so; however, with the nation surrounded by a wall of alps - vertical stone more impenetrable than any fortress - and bristling with mountaineers highly proficient in the use of firearms - and holding same - it would have been a bloodbath.
Like I said, Hitler might have managed it, but it would hardly have been worth the cost, and certainly not a case of “running over them at any time.”
I was merely stating the facts that the German Army had much superior weapons than the 1939 Swiss. The Germans would have crushed them in a week. It was an arrangement that saved their butts from goose steppers, not having a government issue rifle in the closet. It was you that said the Germans couldn't use tanks effectively Switzerland. They don't have to climb mountains with them, just drive down the road. They did quite well in the rest of mountainous Europe.
If attacked, the Swiss would have retreated to the mountains and probably starved or froze in a month.
I’m sorry, but the idea that the Germans would have used V2 rockets to assault the Swiss Alps is just silly.
Which is pretty much what I said, but you disagree?
The Nazi's had the Swiss cooperating with them, why mess it up till you have to? The Swiss were rationing EVERYTHING and had to trade with the Nazi's to survive. They barely produced 50% of the food they needed to survive. If attacked, the army would have fled to the mountains to survive. How would they supply themselves for very long? Hitler took over the Poles, Czechs, and many other larger countries than the Swiss, but somehow he would have difficulty with them? I don't think so. He LET them stay free, .....for awhile. To believe anything else shows a misunderstanding of Fascism and a complete break with reality of Hitler's plans. They were surrounded, they needed Nazi's to live, and would have fallen very quickly if attacked.... Hitler LET them live.
Am I not being plain in what I'm saying??
One more time..... Having a rifle in your closet won't save you from a superior force. Many here tout the Swiss as some super military force because they have a rifle at home. It's certainly better than having no rifle at home, but almost any army would defeat them in short order. The question might be why would they attack the Swiss, but they could and would defeat them simply because of the size of their army.
The lines that I cut and pasted were from an Independant study of Swiss history, DONE BY THE SWISS. Even they say they couldn't win. If you read it it says that had arrangements with the Nazi's. They even admit that if attacked they would run to the mountains and leave the populace to the Nazi's. They would effectivly GIVE the country to the Nazi's, and act as resistance. That means "you lose, they win".
•Switzerland demonstrated military readiness with the general mobilization in 1939 and border occupation by 430,000 troops (20 % of the employed persons). However, their equipment was not very up to date. Eugen Bircher, a Swiss colonel at the time, probably made a correct assessment of the situation when saying that the Germans would have been able to advance towards the Swiss capital Berne with a single tank regiment easily. (Edgar Bonjour, Neutralität, Bd. IV, 1970, p. 379 quoted after Independent Commission of Experts Switzerland - World War II, final report, German edition, p. 92. Note that the english edition of the final report, p. 89f does not give the important adverb "easily") This assessment was shared (but not declared publicly) by a broad majority of leading Swiss Army officers. As a consequence Switzerland's commander in chief General Henri Guisan developed his famous "Reduit Concept" in summer 1940, according to which the Swiss Army would have retreated into the alps relatively soon if attacked, but would have kept up resistance based on some sort of guerrilla tactics from there. Consequently the term "Grenzbesetzung" [occupation of the borders] was replaced by "Aktivdienst" [active (military) service, the term "active" was meant as a counterpoint to 3-week military repetition courses that Swiss soldiers have to attend annually.] After the (international) debate on Switzerland's refugee politics and looted Jewish assets in the 1990's there is now a new (internal) debate about the Reduit Concept among members of the so-called Aktivdienstgeneration [generation of people that were called to active military service]. It seems, that they are becoming aware only today, how soon General Guisan would have retreated Swiss troops from the borders into the Reduit, trying to prevent useless bloodshed on terrain, where the aggressor could use his tanks and aircraft, but leaving the majority of the population under occupation. The main strategy, however, was deterrence rather than fighting - and this worked out better than a sober external observer would have estimated. Of course, General Guisan did not communicate his detailed plans publicly in 1940 ...
•Integrating the German speaking regions (74%) of Switzerland into the Third Reich - as Adolf Hitler did with Austria in 1938 and planned with Switzerland - would have led to civil disobedience and massive "internal" criticism within the Reich, thereby absorbing too many forces of secret police and armed forces and it might even have strengthened the internal resistance in Germany against the Nazi regime. The Swiss concept of Spiritual Defense also had a deterring effect insofar as due to this movement the Swiss population was not at all "demoralized and ready for capitulation", as Adolf Hitler tried to get his victims by massive propaganda.
Then why'd you bring them up? He wouldn't have wasted U-Boats on them, either.
Lets see, how did you say it,....I don’t want to offend, but you are an idiot that either can’t read, or you can’t comprehend what you read..
Hey, I'm not the one who cited V2 rockets as a way to attack troops in the Alps.
No, I don’t disagree with you. I have no doubt Hitler could have overtaken Switzerland IF he’d been willing to pay the price. But - and it’s a big but - the price would have been very, very high.
It’s academic, of course, and, as I said, I don’t disagree with your basic premise, BUT the combination of the Alpine terrain, the hardy Swiss temperament, the ubiquity of civilian firearms, the military training of the citizenry, the fact that the Germans needed Swiss banking, the diplomatic value of a neutral nation in close proximity... among other many other things, made it simply not worth his while.
So what I disagree with, I think, is your characterization that it would have been EASY for Hitler.
Now, we can go around and around all night about the definition of the word “easy”; however, in the end, the Swiss - with a combination of carrot and stick - made it indesirable for the Germans to waste time with them.
And it would have been a waste. The Germans had bigger fish to fry. Between France and Britain, Scandinavia... the North African campaigns, the Mediterranean... eventually the Soviet Union... then the US... I mean, the Germans were excellent solkdiers, but they weren’t supermen, for all the hype about the Aryan virtues.
So, while I don’t disagree at all with your basic premise - i.e., that Hitler could have defeated Switzerland if he’d wanted to, the big questiuon is what he would have had to pay. Certainly a lot more than he paid for Poland, and a HECK of a lot more than he paid for Czechoslovakia (which was basically nothing).
And, in the end, the basic argument remains a valid one - that is, that the native Swiss heartihood, combined with terrain and excellent training, made Hitler back off.
I mean, when a mountain lion declines battle with a porcupine, do we say that the porcupine won? Not really; but, then again, he didn’t lose, either.
Switzerland could never had withstood a massive Nazi U-Boat attack.
LOL. Never underestimate the Swiss Navy...
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