New book says wrong clothing, not winter led to Hitler's 1941 defeat in Russia

ANI ^ | Jul 26, 2009 | Unknown

[1rudeboy]

As I mentioned, Suvorov’s arguments are compelling, but not necessarily conclusive. And yes, they are very controversial in Russia.

[driftless2]

Every war has a lot of what-ifs. So what if Stalin hadn’t murdered large numbers of top-flight officers, like Tukashevski, before the war? What if Stalin had listened to Richard Sorge, his top foreign spy, and properly prepared himself for the invasion? When you get into the game of what-ifs, you have to include everything.

[Straight Vermonter]

Our troops had the same problem in the winter of 44-45.

[SunkenCiv]

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	Gods Graves Glyphs	I don't think this is news to anyone from that generation. I can't remember *not* hearing from my mom how Hitler failed to send his troops with appropriate clothing. Thanks decimon. Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
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[decimon]

Every war has a lot of what-ifs. So what if Stalin hadn’t murdered large numbers of top-flight officers, like Tukashevski, before the war? What if Stalin had listened to Richard Sorge, his top foreign spy, and properly prepared himself for the invasion? When you get into the game of what-ifs, you have to include everything.

Counterfactual history is interesting but there is no accounting for how many things would have been different had one thing been different.

What if the U.S. had mobilized sooner? The output of military weaponry might have given pause to the Axis powers.

What if Mussolini had been induced to remain neutral? Hitler would have been denied access to North Africa and the Mediterranean.

What if the French, Belgians and Dutch had been ready for blitzkrieg warfare?

And on and on.

[decimon]

I can't remember *not* hearing from my mom how Hitler failed to send his troops with appropriate clothing.

I think I can hear her clucking her tongue over Hitler sending those boys away without warm clothing. ;-)

[Jmouse007]

Thank you, exceptional assessment of the total situation and reason for the loss. However, there is one more factor that needs to be added to the equation and reason for their loss: God Almighty! In spite of everything that has been mentioned, Nazi Germany was "Hell on Wheels" a generation and a half of uber soldiers and some of the finest military equipment and tactics on the planet.

In spite of ALL of their advantages, God Himself fought against and annihilated them because they were destroying the Jews, the "apple of God's eye".

It was ultimately by His mercy and grace that we won WWII.

[Jmouse007]

You are right, Hitler acted stupidly by ordering the persecution and death of the Ukrainians, Jews and slavic people. The Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis with open arms, flowers and kisses when they first arrived! They viewed them as saviors and would have done ANYTHING for them in order to be delivered from "Uncle Joe" and Soviet Russia.

But the Nazis turned millions of their new alies into enemies overnight as a direct result of their hateful, racist, destructive policies.

[Richard Kimball]

I agree with your points. On a broader scale, Hitler was the best weapon the Allies had.

Germany's R&D was creating stuff that would have been unbeatable in battle at that time. Heck, the Soviet AND United States both used former Nazis for their space program brains. The Nazis developed jets towards the end of the war. As light fighters they would have been as devastating to the Allied prop planes as the tanks were to the horse calvary. They could never get them into high production, though, because Hitler kept declaring war on more countries.

IIRC, towards the end of the war, the Allies quit trying to assassinate Hitler because they were convinced we were better off if he stayed in power.

With the brainpower and weapons Germany had at it's disposal, if they had been able to stay out of conflict with Russia until they were finished in Britain, we might be looking at a far different world right now. Roosevelt loved Stalin, but until Pearl Harbor, the US was divided on whether to support Germany or Britain, and most wanted to stay entirely out of it. Quick notes: Both Joseph Kennedy and Charles Lindbergh supported Germany, and Planned Parenthood was quite enthused with Germany's eugenics movement. Germany had a lot of influence in the Arts and Croissants crowd in the US.

[Burma Jones]

The delay in starting the campaign looks big in retrospect, but Hitler didn’t think it that big a deal at the time — he still had his army doodle around in the Ukraine for a couple of months instead of pushing on to Moscow before the cold came.

To invade Russia when he was still fighting Britain doesn’t make much sense. To jump in with both feet after Pearl Harbor and declare war on the US when he was still fighting Britain and Barbarossa had stalled out in the cold really doesn’t make sense.

[Captain Peter Blood]

That story is way old news. Most people know that the Germans planned for a quick spring and summer offensive then got bogged down.
Reality was that they had no winter clothes or materials for a winter offensive.
Did the lightbulb just go off for this guy who wrote the book?????????????????????

[SunkenCiv]

The key error was not in sending them with no coats, but in sending them *at all*. :’)

It’s prepub (date is early in August).

Nothing on the US site, but here’s the UK results:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Storm-War-History-Second-World/dp/0713999705/

0713999705

The Storm of War: A New History of the Second World War (Hardcover)
by Andrew Roberts

0713999705

978-0713999709

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lzv13CeqL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lzv13CeqL._SS500_.jpg

[fortheDeclaration]

Yes, all were factors.

[fortheDeclaration]

Yes, and the fact that the Soviets made a peace treaty with the Japanese which allowed them to use troops they had stationed along China and in Sibera.

[DoorGunner]

>> “He stated that the million or so Red Army prisoners the Nazis captured would have almost to a man, been happy to take up arms against Stalin...”

My uncle was guarding Russian soldiers (who had been POWa of the Germans) just following WII. Said they begged him to shoot them.

[nathanbedford]

Meinen Sie, dass Gott nicht mit uns War?

[Jmouse007]

Nein! :o)

[Tallguy]

You are right, Hitler acted stupidly by ordering the persecution and death of the Ukrainians, Jews and slavic people. The Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis with open arms, flowers and kisses when they first arrived!

Yes, but the Nazi plan called for de-populating swaths of territory to the East & re-colonizing it with the "master race." The Ukranians were going to be betrayed from the start. This is one counter-factual that I can't accept.

[Tallguy]

You are right, Hitler acted stupidly by ordering the persecution and death of the Ukrainians, Jews and slavic people. The Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis with open arms, flowers and kisses when they first arrived!

Yes, but the Nazi plan called for de-populating swaths of territory to the East & re-colonizing it with the "master race." The Ukranians were going to be betrayed from the start. This is one counter-factual that I can't accept.

[Tallguy]

Sorry for the double-post!