FLoyd Landis Drug Test Discussion Thread -- Please post links to all articles here.

none ^ | 28 Jul 2006 | Self

[commish]

Making a central thread for people to link articles, post comments, discuss, etc -- the Floyd Landis, Tour de France Doping scandal.

[commish]

Other FR threads :

Landis Gives Positive Drug Test

Landis May Be Last Straw For German Network

Tour De France Winner Landis Gives positive drug test

Breaking: Floyd Landis Tests Positive for Illegal Drug Use

[commish]

Media Coverage:

FLoyd Denies Cheating (Interview with Austin Murphy)

ESPN W link to Landis Press Conference

[commish]

PING

[leilani]

Thanks! (Wow that was fast!) Here's one, the AP's "Landis Results Don't Add Up" by Lindsey Tanner

".... Testosterone creams, pills and injections can build muscle and strength and improve recovery time after exertion when used over a period of several weeks, according to Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine.

But if Landis had been a user, earlier urine tests during the Tour would have been affected, too, Wadler said. Landis' first reported abnormal result was last Thursday, after his amazing come-from-behind performance in stage 17 of the race.

One-time use of steroids could result in an abnormal test, but it would have no effect on performance and could not account for Landis' astounding feat Thursday, ''so something's missing here,'' Wadler said. ''It just doesn't add up.''

click for article

I have a lot more aticles & quotes from anti-doping agency people, endocrinologists etc, but have to be away from my laptop for next half hour or so. I was depressed about this yesterday, but the more I'm discovering that this rush to judgement could very well be a big fat bust, I'm hopping mad!

[PeteB570]

Go, Girl, go, keep us in the loop.

[PeteB570]

And of course you to commish.

Thanks for the info and links.

[Cagey]

Greg LeMond has been getting plenty of face time the last couple of days including an interview on the Today show this morning. I only wish Lauer had asked Greg if he had ever doped.

[Vision]

That seems to be the entire issue leilani.

What a shame this had to rear it's ugly head.

[leilani]

To: leilani

Before I go, here's Phil Liggett discussing the situation & the rush to judgement with Kyra Phillips on CNN:
Transcript Courtesy of CNN Live From

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, first it was Lance, now it's Floyd Landis. So, we ask the question: Can an American, or any cyclist, for that matter, win the Tour de France without a hint of impropriety?

Landis' racing team announced today that an unusually high level of testosterone was found in a Landis test sample taken during the race.

Phil Liggett, a Tour de France announcer, joins us now live on the phone from London.

Phil, are you surprised?

PHIL LIGGETT, TOUR DE FRANCE ANNOUNCER: I'm very surprised. Shocked is probably a better word, in fact, because we didn't expect Landis to do this.

He made statements during the tour about riding a clean Tour de France and how good it was for the children. And now he's apparently come up with unusual levels of testosterone, which can mean one of two things. It's either a natural thing, which it can well be, and I hope that they are not making a big mistake by telling the press before they've had the second test confirm the first, or it's synthetic, in which case he is cheating.

PHILLIPS: Now, this, of course, happened with Lance Armstrong, and he was completely cleared of this. So...

LIGGETT: Yes.

PHILLIPS: ...is it possible that all this is coming out, and maybe the teams spoke a little too soon?

LIGGETT: It is quite possible. He's not near the team. The team are put into a corner. Somehow this has leaked out of either the test center or by the world body itself, because normally when you have a first test which is positive, no one knows until the second test confirms the first. And then the announcement is made and the sanctions are given.

Now, the team are forced into a decision, because we had the situation where Landis had just won the race the day after the Tour de France finished in Holland. He was due to ride another one, didn't turn up. Nobody knew where he was.

The rumor from the organizers, which are unconfirmed, was he had a problem with his—as you know, he has a hip replacement coming. It was painful. That proved to be untrue.

He should have gone to Denmark and raced there last night. He didn't do so. And then the team suddenly came up with the statement, yes, we've been told and we are totally shocked that Floyd has been told he's got these unnatural levels of testosterone in his system.

PHILLIPS: And, Phil, you mentioned this was a leak. And if I remember correctly, the same thing happened with Lance Armstrong.

I mean, is it common that there are people out there, whether it's jealousy or ego or money, whatever it is, just looking to somehow brandish the reputation of these cyclists?

LIGGETT: I think this is absolutely true. For example, we've only publicized the fact that, in all, 22 riders never got to start the Tour de France in Strasbourg because of this so-called Operation Puerto, where a doctor has admitted treating 200 people, changing their blood, and using the blood booster EPO, et cetera, of which he said 58 are cyclists.

We've never heard one of the other athletes named, yet he's said they are in football, basketball, tennis, et cetera. And now he's saying, "Half the guys that you threw off the Tour de France, I've never heard of in my life." And, in fact, the calls in Spain this week has said that four riders who were sent home have nothing against their name. They are free to ride again, and they're not on the list, and they're not under any drug suspicion.

But those stories, unfortunately, don't make the press anymore, because this story was the fact they were sent home.

There is a lot of trial by jury in the media and amongst the people, and they don't wait for the final outcome. And sadly, Floyd Landis, I don't know whether he's taken testosterone or not. But I do know the guy, and I would find it very difficult to believe he's a cheat.

And the way he rode, yes, it was extreme. One day he's collapsed, he's losing 10 minutes, he's an absolute shattered wreck, the next day he's winning the race by five and three quarter minutes and he looks like Superman. And so it makes me wonder whether that's possible, but...

PHILLIPS: Well, is that when he failed those tests? Were those tests taken after he had fallen behind and then he started to pick it up? Is that when he failed the test, Phil?

LIGGETT: No, he failed the test because—and this is what's also strange—you are automatically tested when you win a stage of the Tour de France. And this was the stage he won by six minutes. And he knows he has to go within 30 minutes directly to the testing area and give a urine sample.

That's the sample they say is positive.

PHILLIPS: OK, interesting. So it happened after the race.

So let me ask you this. He said he had a beer after the race. I mean, is it possible that alcohol can affect testosterone? I mean, obviously, I'm not a doctor. You and I aren't scientists, right? But, you know...

LIGGETT: Correct. What I understand is that testosterone is made by the body, and the brain tells the body what to make. And he was in a very, very emotional state.

He thought he'd lost the Tour one day. He was in a state of collapse. He no doubt re-hydrated overnight, probably intravenously with glucose, totally legal. Then the next day he comes and does this great performance.

When he crossed the line, he was a very angry young man. I've never seen him—he had a face like thunder. He was looking to punch anybody that went to him. And to me, apparently, that is a high testosterone indicator.

PHILLIPS: Now, his mom spoke out. Arlene Landis spoke out, and she said—let's see the quote—I believe it was coming to us through The Associated Press.

"I didn't talk to him since that hit the fan, but I'm keeping things even keel until I know what the facts are. I know that this is a temptation to every rider, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions. It disappoints me."

What do you think of...

LIGGETT: Well, I think that's a very fair quote from a mom. The fact—the fact is simple. It's not a difficult test, but what they've got to prove is, is this—if it's normally produced high testosterone levels, which it can be, then the guy's innocent, because you can't stop the body doing what it does.

If it's proved—and again, there's a test of synthetic introduction of testosterone—if that's proved, then he's a cheat.

And they've got to make the decision between the two, and they've got to be sure they're right.

PHILLIPS: Phil Liggett, Tour de France announcer, sure appreciate your time. It was an honor to have you, sir.

LIGGETT: My pleasure.

SOURCE: Transcript Courtesy of CNN Live From

click here, scroll down for Liggett on Landis

[leilani]

Sorry the I let that go w/faulty link, but it's not necessary to click it anyway since I posted the (sshh!)whole thing click here, scroll down for Liggett on Landis

[Vision]

If the doctor in leilani's post is correct, what could have happened? Bad test? Jealousy?(I've personally seen the hatred Europeans have for American dominance in this race) Is it possible for a man to generate the 4:1 testosterone ratio they're talking about...I mean for guys other than me? /stupid grin

[tellw]

History Says Landis Keeps Tour Title

[tellw]

History says Landis keeps Tour title Pat Hickey CanWest News Service Friday, July 28, 2006 CREDIT: Getty Images Floyd Landis of the USA and Phonak celebrates winning the 93rd Tour de France, on July 23 in Paris. According to a statement given by Landis' sponsor Phonak on July 27, 2006, he tested positive for the male sex hormone testosterone after stage 17 of the Tour de France. The Phonak cycling team was quick to distance itself from Tour de France winner Floyd Landis, but the smart money says Landis won't be stripped of his title despite a positive test for ''elevated levels of testosterone.'' Phonak suspended Landis and removed all references to him from its website, but Landis intends to challenge the test results and history appears to be on his side. Landis told SI.com Thursday that an elevated level of testosterone is different from a positive test and that this is a fairly common problem among pro cyclists. Landis has retained Spanish doctor Luis Hernandez, who has aided other riders' appeals of similar test results. Landis and ESPN cycling analyst John Eustice both noted no cyclist has ever lost an appeal of a test for elevated testosterone levels. Landis also said the next step is to submit to an endocrine test that might help him prove he just happens to be a guy walking around with an inordinate amount of testosterone in his blood. Meanwhile, Landis will not be yukking it up with Jay Leno tonight. A spokesperson for the show said Landis' appearance will be rescheduled. U.S. bids found lacking: The United States Olympic Committee has pared the number of potential candidates for the 2016 Games down to three cities, but USOC chairman Peter Ueberroth isn't very enthusiastic about the chances for Chicago, Los Angeles or San Francisco. Ueberroth, who revolutionized the Olympic Games by rounding up major commercial sponsorship for the successful 1984 Games in L.A., said: ''Right now, of the three cities that were selected today, there's none that would have an acceptable program we could take to the (International Olympic Committee).'' The USOC eliminated Houston and Philadelphia from contention. Bid's in the toilet: Leland's, the auction house that specializes in sports memorabilia, is taking bids on the toilet that was installed inside the home dugout at Boston's Fenway Park before the 1986 season and was removed during clubhouse renovations in 2004. The auction catalogue states that the toilet ''got up close and very personal with the likes of Boggs, Ramirez, Damon and Pedro.'' Has-been update, Part I: A Florida court has sentenced former major-league slugger Albert Belle to 90 days for stalking a former girlfriend. Belle attempted to keep tabs her by attaching a global positioning system device to her car. Has-been update, Part II: Former Ohio State All-American running back Maurice Clarett doesn't have a lawyer for his coming trial on aggravated burglary and weapons charges. In a single-paragraph letter written on July 20, Clarett fired attorneys William Settina and Robert Krapenc. They filed a motion this week, saying they do not wish to continue as Clarett's lawyers, saying he has not paid their fees and is not co-operating in his own defence. Montreal Gazette EDS: The CND will move Pat Hickey's Standing Pat column on asemi-regular basis, or those times when his column is of nationalinterest. © CanWest News Service 2006

Copyright © 2006 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

[leilani]

Well (& I think that's what we need this thread for) we need to find that out. We still haven't heard what the Sample "A" T/E ratio was. We still don't know if they found synthetic test (curtains for Floyd if they did.) But lots of people are saying an abnormal read ain't all that abnormal.Several things raise suspicions & real questions (1) They leaked results of the A sample which even former World Anti-doping Officials say is shockingly irresponsible b/c results of this particular test are not necessarily proof he doped at all, only a B sample to duplicate the result & subsequent endocrine profiles performed on Landis himself to rule out natural causes could confirm (2)The test performed by all accounts is not definitive, plenty of innocent causes for a high ratio: alcohol consumption, normal phys/biochem response to injury (his hip), the over the top emotions of what he'd just done, etc or a "perfect storm" combination of some of these things 3) He would have had no motive to do it because even a shot of synthetic Test couldn't have helped him, couldn't have produced his "Lazarus" performance in Stage 17 and every athelete outside the Special Olympics would know that. The rush to judgement we've seen from some sports journalists seems awfully premature at this point.So we really do need to track what the experts trained in endocrinology are saying & a heck of a lot of 'em are saying this morning "whoa, not so fast!"

[leilani]

Here's an article from FoxNews:

Experts: Possible Explanations for Landis' Testosterone Levels By Denise Mann Fox News.com Thursday, July 27, 2006

Tour de France champion Floyd Landis tested positive for high levels of testosterone, but experts tell WebMD that there could be many reasons why.

"This is huge news," says steroid law expert and former body builder Rick Collins of Carle Place, N.Y. But Collins is quick to add Landis is innocent until proven guilty.

"Don’t draw any conclusions yet and certainly if he didn't, in fact, consume testosterone, Landis should mount a very vigorous defense," says Collins, author of Legal Muscle.

For starters, the test looks at the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone and is highly likely to yield false-positive results........At one point in the three-week race, it seemed as though Landis was petering out. But "an injection of testosterone is not some sort of miracle, immediate boost like an amphetamine or stimulant," Collins says. "Athletes who use testosterone use it over a fairly long course and the benefit accumulates over a period of time."

Testosterone would not account for his comeback, Collins stresses. "A single shot of testosterone would provide little or no benefit."

John Eliot, PhD, a professor of human performance at Rice University in Houston, and the author of "Overachievement," agrees with Collins. "The likelihood [that he used illegal substances] seems small to me," ...snip... "His body, in an attempt to recover, will naturally release more testosterone as part of the recovery process," Eliot says. Also "who knows what he is taking for the pain and this too could interfere with the testing results."....snip.... Exactly when he tested positive is also somewhat suspicious, says Eliot. The test was done at stage 17, which coincides with one of the most intense parts of the race.

"The more heavily we exert ourselves, the more naturally our body releases testosterone," he says.

"Fans assume guilt until innocence is proven, but there are a lot of reasons to believe he could be innocent," he says.

Carlos R. Hamilton Jr., MD, professor of medicine and an endocrinologist at University of Texas Health Sciences Center in Houston, and a member of the health, medical, and research committee of the World Anti-Doping Agency, is also reserving his judgment.

"The fact that it is strictly a testosterone level does not mean it came from outside of the body, it could have been produced internally," he says. "It's a perfectly normal occurring hormone."

He says that there is a large variation in what they consider normal on this test and no one knows exactly how Landis scored. "Were his results within normal limits or just out of sight?" he asks.The bottom line is that the information was released too prematurely, he says. "Wait until we get the final answers. If he cheated, it will be recognized; if he did not, this does him a great disservice."[my emphasis]

click here for more

Now I really do have to go before I get in trouble!

[Vision]

I think you about nailed it. I read he drank whiskey the night before.

What's shocking is how fast this all came out. If things are the way they seem to me, you can feel the hatred some have for those who attain excellence.

[commish]

THanks for all the links.

Right now it really looks like this is a False Positive. Nothing in Landis background would lead anyone to think he was anything but clean. There would be no benefit to him taking Testonterone or synthetic Epi for that stage. He was tested multiple times as yellow jersey leader (INCLUDING after STAGE 15 and 16) and showed no abnormal results.

I think the result was either 1. a bad test and the B test will be negative or 2. a combination of adrenaline high, Alcohol (He drank a beer immediately after the stage and before the test), and just his total level of physical fitness and exertion.

Even if the B comes back positive, Floyd will then have the endocrine test run to prove he is clean. As has been said, every rider who has challenged this test has been successful.

The sad thing is that even if the B test is negative, or if the endocrine test clears Floyd -- the leaker has accomplished exactly what they wanted. They have destroyed the celebration, and have created a doubt about Floyd -- just as they have done with Lance.

[commish]

The International Olympic Committee has completely dropped this test from it's testing regimen because it is so inaccurate. They have gone to a straight test for the synthetic Epitestosterone.

[leilani]

Well, I wouldn't rush to judgement on the UCI either. They absolutely have to clean up the sport, and they've been tossing out riders from every country on the globe, not just americans remember. The concern is that if they are too reckless, too cavalier about how they do it, then the anti-doping effort itself gets discredited, and cycling truly does become the joke sport all my unenlightened friends think it is.

[VOA]

bump

[leilani]

The International Olympic Committee has completely dropped this test from it's testing regimen because it is so inaccurate. They have gone to a straight test for the synthetic Epitestosterone.

I think that fact needs to be bumped in bold.

[leilani]

the leaker has accomplished exactly what they wanted An investigation needs to be opened & the leaker, regardless of what happens with Landis's appeal, needs to be prosecuted if this sport is going to be anything other than the punchline to an international joke.What happened here was absolutely criminal.

[RichardW]

This appears to be a good source and has several links. Cycling News appears to be on top of this situation.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul28news3

[RichardW]

This appears to be a good source and has several links. Cycling News appears to be on top of this situation.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul28news3

[RichardW]

This is conspiratorial and that's the domain of the left. Let's not go there.

[green iguana]

I wouldn't rush to judgement on the UCI either.

Oh, I would. This is the organization that smeared Lance repeatedly over the years, even after he retired by releasing confidential info. By releasing any information that might make him look bad while not mentioning the much more voluminous info that cleared him. This is the group that made sure a large group of innocent guys couldn't race the TdF this year, including Vino. This is the group that continues to use a discredited testosterone test even after hundreds of cyclists have failed it and then been cleared by a much more reliable one. And it's been going on for years. The UCI is the organization that nullified Graeme Obree's World Hour Record by stating that his novel bike violated their rules even though they changed the rules after the record was set. This is the group that sent an official out onto the track and interfered with Obree because he was about to win the World Pursuit Track Championship. His bike had been declared legal before the start of the race. The UCI continued to say the bike was legal, they just didn't like the way he was sitting on it. There were no UCI regulations pertaining to how one must sit on a bike. The UCI had it in for Lance - they make that look like a minor nothing the way they had it in for Obree.

The UCI is a joke - it needs to be replaced by a credible oversight organization.

[BaBaStooey]

From CyclingNews.com: Floyd Landis positive: Was it the beer?

[Toidylop]

I smell a rat for the whole story from the gitgo!!!

[leilani]

You know a lot more about their history than I. All I have to go on is what the UCI in its current incarnation did to the poor schmucks on Astana who were prevented from riding the TdF and "cleared" right after the final stage cavalierly wrecking possibly Vino's last chance to win at a sport he's dedicated his life to. I was(am?) willing to ascribe their misdeeds to just plain old-fashioned reckless malfeasance borne of bureaucratic hubris, since they do seem to be screwing innocent riders of lots of nationalities. But I tell you what, if they don't get their pathetic act together, this sport is toast no matter what the ultimate outcome on Floyd.(Makes me want to apply to law school TODAY! Can I bunk w/you if they take me back up there, GI?LOL!)

[commish]

HEADS UP --- LANDIS PRESS CONFERENCE IN 15 MINUTES.

Also, story from Fox Sports -- Landis may get B results Monday. Landis Could Learn Tour Fate by Monday

[nutmeg]

Thanks for the heads up! Where is the press conference... ESPN? OLN? Sorry, just logged on... haven't had time to read this thread yet.

[leilani]

Thanks for the links & heads up. I sure hope he has a gaggle of docs & World Anti-doping members with him. I've been thinking his PR people have sucked eggs so far.Fingers crossed they now know what they're up against & have a battle plan in place.

[nutmeg]

Tour de France ping!

HEADS UP --- LANDIS PRESS CONFERENCE at about 11:30am ET. (Sorry, I don't know where... see post #31)

Also, check posts 1-31 on this thread... lots of good links, interviews, etc. about the current Landis situation.

Please FReepmail me if you want on or off my Tour de France 2006 list.

[nutmeg]

Do you know where this press conference will be? ESPN, OLN, CNN...?

[leilani]

Don't know. I have it tuned to ESPN,I don't even know if I have access to the others. (chances are it's not OLN - they don't do stuff like this.)

[commish]

Not sure who will have it. Imagine ESPN NEWS will carry it live maybe ESPN main. I am cubicle bound today, so I am counting on others to post tidbits.

[Voss]

What a good idea. Thanks for doing this.

[leilani]

MSNBC! About to start!

[leilani]

Sorry, meant to ring your pinger. MSNBC!

[commish]

Please pass on anything interesting. I am stuck in my cube at work today. Not even a TV I can Prarie Dog to see.

[leilani]

I'll try, but I stink at that stuff as you are well aware.Where's R4F when we need him? Nutmeg I meant to ring your ping beacon too. Hasn't started yet, but waiting for presser to go live, temporarily OT about ME at MSNBC.

[nutmeg]

Tour de France ping!

LANDIS PRESS CONFERENCE IS ABOUT TO START ON MSNBC!

Unfortunately I cannot post info regarding this press conference right now... I have to run to an appointment. I will have to rely on other FReepers to do so.

Thanks, commish and leilani for the heads up!

Please FReepmail me if you want on or off my Tour de France 2006 list.

[nutmeg]

It's MSNBC. Thanks again for the heads up. I'm sorry I am unable to stick around and post info from this press conference. I'm lucky I happened to be on FR for about 2 seconds and saw your post right away, and had another 2 seconds to alert the TDF ping list...

Ready4Freddy... are you out there? ;-)

[Eurotwit]

A Norwegian doping expert came out with a similar conclusion today. There might be some hope.

Cheers.

[leilani]

YAY! Tell us if eurosport carries FL's live press conference. Babastooey & GI, forgot to ring your pinger. MSNBC now for press conf.

[fortunecookie]

Thanks, tuning in...

[fortunecookie]

Fox News appears to be running it, too.

[Eurotwit]

heads up.

Live press conference now with Landis on CNN.

[Eurotwit]

CNN International :-)